Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:04:06 -0500
Subject: Re: 7th level old souls

Barbara Taylor wrote:

> For general information, there are 20 people in my famous folks
> database designated 7th level old souls. These come from a variety of
> sources and seem to make sense for the ones I know a little bit about.
>
> They are: Meher Baba, B Boutros-Ghali, Ram Dass, Siddhartha Gautama
> (before the Buddha came in), Thich Nhat Hanh, Joseph (Jesus's father),
> The man Jesus (before the Infinite soul/Christ came in), Maharishi,
> Nelson Mandela, Mother Mary (Jesus's mother), Don Juan Matus,
> Michelangelo, Muktananda, Swami Nityananda, Rama (Indian Avatar),
> Anwar Sadat, Swami Satchidananda, Patrick Stewart, Zen Master Suzuki,
> Emanual Swedenborg.

Barbara, I enjoyed your post. You made a lot of points. Your examples are fascinating, but the "problem" with this particular list as an "example" of 7th level OS is that it feeds more, IMHO, into the traditional views of Eastern Religions (such as Hinduism and Buddhism) on the subject of reincarnation, which is qualitiatively different from Michael's teachings--and which is what I *love* about Michael. To wit: in the traditional view, when you are finally, after literally millions of lifetimes (how many depends on if you buy into the view of transmigration, that many of your lives are as animals), ready to "cycle off" the planet, it is only when you have reached "nirvana" or "enlightenment," or what Maharaishi calls "cosmic" or "god consciousness." In Michael's view, we aren't here millions of lifetimes in a cycle, rather only hundreds. And our goal isn't necessarily, by our first or even our third or fourth cycle, to manage to achieve the blissed out state of "enlightenment." In this view, it is perfectly possible to be completely "dysfunctional" (by young soul standards, especially) and still be 7th level.

Another issue I have with using famous people such as your list above as illustrative examples of what 7th level "looks like" is that most all of these other than Patrick Stewart (is that "Captain Picard from Star Trek??) are major movers-and-shakers (i.e. transformers of the planet, most of them in a spiritual context). That is, they each chose to have a *huge* territory of teaching influence. This is *very*, very unusual, from my take on Michael's teachings, for OSs in general. Our mandate is to teach one or two people a lifetime, not the teeming masses.

It's my understanding via the Michael teachings that in societies like ours, which are YS, and esp. if in a Baby Soul society--where the distance between the OS's consciousness/experience and that of the society as a whole is almost too huge to bridge--it can be *very* common for 7th level Olds to be "bums" aka street people, at the least, even when, in the OS's *own* eyes, they are functioning well and "normally," at best they come off as extremely eccentric, even downright weird to the YS's and BS's. Matures can somewhat accept us, but even for them it is a stretch. For this reason, Olds tend to be loners or gravitate to little pockets of other Olds, in my experience.

For example, in Columbia, Missouri where I spent many years of my life, there is a little pocket of highly eccentric (and extremely "dysfunctional by BS, YS and even MS standards) group of OS's who were hippies in the 60s and for many years have been the core of the "new age community" there. Many of them have (for you astro afficionados) major "Neptune" problems and have never given up drugs. It is rather sad hearing them still using the rhetoric of the 60's about drugs being the "window to the spiritual realms."

I have spent this entire lifetime almost exclusively around OS's (a strong karmic desire, I have come to believe), and I have found they are very common in California and the NW and portions of the SW, esp. Arizona (Sedona, etc.) in this country, and throughout the rest of the country you will find little pockets of them, as in Columbia, MO. Most major cities now have a new age community.

At this current time, a lot of OSs are choosing a karma of fame, in the arts, esp., and I think that's because we OS's have got a karmic "mandate" from the universe to, whether we want to or not, help as spiritual midwives as the planet moves from young to mature. And, btw, in my perception, OS's will appear less and less "weird" as the planet as a whole matures. :)

In my perception, right now it is the Baby and Infant Souls who are having the hardest time surviving the change. As OS's, things are finally, gradually, starting to shift in our direction.

For what it's worth, Gloria, I asked Michael what you are and they confirmed for me that you are 7th level Old. I think being an OS is a mixed blessing, like being a highly creative person is. In this culture, OS's and artists (and many, many OS's choose also to be artists) are *not* appreciated. So the concept of a "contest" and feeling "superior" about being an OS, in my perception, is a joke. I have rarely, rarely met an OS, esp. late OS, and I have met dozens and dozens, who aren't suffering from low self esteem (alternating with painful grandiosity), depression, and who have gone in and out of "self-medicating" themselves with recreational drugs, food and sex to help with the existential pain of being too totally weird to fit in. The people who seem to have adjusted the best are those lucky enough (or who made the karmic choice of it) to be born to OS's (though that's a mixed blessing, because, as I say, OS's tend to be highly dysfunctional and frequently make *terrible* parents since parenting forces you to relate, constantly and intimately with an alienating, disempowering YS culture in a way that can tear you apart).

Kate, throwing in her two-cents worth (and it might not even be worth a penny <G>)

--
Kate McMurry

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:48:51 +0000
Subject: AMT Conference Report Pt. 4

Day 2 began with a discussion of Michael on the internet. Individuals who had websites or were otherwise involved in spreading the teachings this way were recognized, and/or brought up on stage to say a few words (including our own Barbara Taylor and Lori Tostado). When asked how many had first heard of the conference or Michael in general through the net, only a few hands were raised, but I expect this number will rise through the coming years.

The format for the panel discussions was to have each participating channel speak on a topic of their choice for 10 or 15 minutes, take questions, and then hand off to the next speaker. Aaron Christaaen presented an idea that has stayed with me, that of "splash out."

Visualize your psyche as a container of liquid with all that you are floating around in it -- good, bad and indifferent parts, memories, habits, potentials, etc. An experience such as this conference can act as if a sizable rock had been tossed into your psyche, and while you may be feeling considerably better than usual now, over the next few days you may swing to feeling much worse than usual. This could be seen as "splash out," that is, certain psychic contents that are ordinarily contained are now "out" for you to deal with. Whenever these complexes (or growth opportunities) are activated, they draw energy from your consciousness, giving you a "let down" sort of feeling.

The other material I remember well was presented by JP Van Hulle. Since we are cast from the Tao in waves that can be numbered by cadres and entities, it is possible to map each essence's individual "energetic address" in relation to everyone else's. They prepared an interesting visual aid to help us better understand this. Imagine an entity as three long, narrow rectangles, about 4' high, maybe 8" wide, each divided into 7 equal-sized squares. These squares are then divided into 7 rows and 7 columns, so you have 3 rectangles with 7 boxes each with 49 smaller squares marked inside them (3x7x7x7=1029).

The three rectangles are joined at the sides -- forming an equilateral triangle -- but each piece is staggered downward so that only six of the seven squares line up with the rectangle to its left. This means that when the first and third pieces are joined, only five squares line up. (Have I confused you yet? Take it slow. Try it with three pens or strips of paper, that may help.) This staggering creates a join for the next entity to link up with.

Essence twins tend to take up the spot on an adjacent rectangle just opposite your own. Task companions could be seen as occupying adjacent spots within your own square. Because of the staggering, it becomes possible to have task companions or other deeply significant relationships with essences in different entities. They are, in a literal sense, "closer" to you than many members of your own entity.

So maybe you're wondering now, if Michael is an entity composed of 1049 essences, where do the other 20 go? Apparently there are wild cards, or "hangers on" to the entities that attach themselves perpendicularly (?) to other essences. So instead of being surrounded by 8 other essences, you might only be in contact with 2. (One conference attendee was pointed out as occupying one of these slots who is also a member of our list. Ed? Care to share anything on this topic?)

As you can imagine, this is heady, sacred geometry kind of stuff. It also has the feel of essence genealogy, or something. If we could get enough people mapped this way, it would be possible to have a central place to identify your own exact position within your entity, and then look to see who else was in your immediate family, as well as those with whom we have key relationships, based on their mathematical resonances. (There would be an extra charge, however, for identifying those with whom you have sexual karma, Alma joked.)

TO BE CONTINUED

Dean

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:37:14 -0800
Subject: Re: 7th Old & weird stuff from Lori

PmpSARALL wrote:

> Blessings! >>>> "Essence will jump around on levels in order to get the
> lessons it needs..... May be almost totally cycled off --but instead of
> sitting at 7th level old....it will send a fragment back to a different
> level, where the lesson will be better seen, dealt with, and integrated. In
> this way the old soul is more maleable and inconsistent, eccentric and less
> structured..... <<<<
>
> Thank You! I have felt this ever since I first read Messages back in 1989!
> I had never been able to receive any validation from anyone on this point,
> and STILL it has been something I just KNEW, and no one had been able to sway
> me otherwise. (There was the possibility my Stubbornness was acting here,
> but I KNEW what I KNEW )...................

Some more weird stuff I got was how a fragment can jump around within (or even between) entities sometimes.... I remember in Shepherd Hoodwin's book "Journey of your Soul," a part about how some cadences within entities are not always full--it's like the framework is there but no essence occupies the space--that's why not all entities have only multiples of 7 essences within them (not to mention the essences that can grab onto the "sides" as it were, in JP's recent channeling regarding entity/cadre structure--BTW Thank you DEAN for presenting this from the conference to the list!!!) and I got the image that this empty spot is then *open* to others to "jump" into when they would like, when they have an agreement with an entity to do so. This was how I got that some extraterrestrials who are "space-faring races," as Michael described in "Messages..." can come into the Earth plane and have one or more human lifetimes which are not a whole cycle. Furthermore, many of these ET's (extraterrestrials here--not to be confused with essence-twins!) are some of *us* in our own other cycles! This is information I've gotten from Michael directly--no other channel has confirmed any of this for me (but if any of you would like to, that would be great!) Our other cycles are happening NOW, they are not really past or future--so you can connect to any of them, especially the ones that are aware of you as well, whenever you want to. They are often your spirit guides, but they are you....

For myself as an example--I've been trying for years now to put together my ET aspect, the one that resonates with Sirius, the Pleiades, Vega, (or it may possibly be more than one fragment) as this aspect is so strong within me--it's been called a "Starseed" by many, with my Earthly aspect because I also have a strong Earthly aspect, and I can remember having many, many lifetimes here on Earth, that have nothing to do with my ET aspect in those lives. I got that many of us older souls like to bring in other aspects of ourselves, from other cycles which may or may not have been on Earth (more likely not) to share with them and add to their as well as our own cycle's knowledge to take back to the Tao. Mine is partially karmic though--this ET aspect of mine, was one that worked on the genetic engineering of Earth humans long ago--he/she and colleagues from Sirius, the Pleiades, and elsewhere, got caught into a trap of being like Gods to these humans. They genetically engineered humans to worship them and obey them, and this form of slavery of sentient beings created a huge amount of what I'll call "species karma." In order for us to really "get it," as to what it was like to be a human, we took on a full cycle of lives as humans, the species we created and abused in making them worship us--and, we also took on a few lifetimes as our ET souls being human--on a whole other planet, which felt like we were completely cut off and lost from our family, it was very traumatic and lonely. You may ask, are these ET's walk-ins then? Well, in some cases, yes. In my case, my ET aspect is here in me, and so is my Earthly aspect. We are (at least) 2 fragments of the SAME being, in the same body, blended together but still not fully integrated and harmonious. Earth feels like home to me in a way, but the stars call to me with a longing of "home" which strikes the core of my being like lightning. I remember living on other planets, travelling the stars....I used to draw and paint pictures of these planets and beings when I was younger....Oh yeah, this reminds me of another aspect of mine, one from the Angelic realm, who I call Alena, my spirit-guide, but she is me as well....She is becoming more and more fully integrated within me all the time. She relates very much to my ET aspect, as she helped that aspect come into this body when it was resisting when I was depressed, especially as a teenager.

Well anyway--what this has to do with entities: Different channels get me as being in different entities and sometimes can't decide which one I'm in. Most often, it's been 2nd and 5th entity. I know people in both these entities. I feel like entity mates with some people I know from both these entities too, so it's strange.... What I feel like is more 2nd entity, but I'm not sure if it's the Earthly aspect or the ET aspect that is 2nd entity....I think it's more the Earth aspect but there must be many from my ET soul-family who are in 2nd entity too because they hold a kind of cosmic feeling for me too....and then I feel like, a part of the 5th entity a bit--like that's where my ET aspect jumped into an empty spot, or a side spot, in order to experience some human lives here from its perspective. But in this life, there's been a kind of blending together of both of them. Someone mentioned to me that my essence-twin may be 5th entity so that's why I kind of feel 5th entity-ish as well. I'm not sure. I know my Earthly essence-twin, and I know my ET essence-twin who is as an Earthly aspect, an entity and cadence mate of mine, who I call my Essence Mate. They both feel like they are my essence-twins. Boy it took me a long time to figure that one out! BTW: Caris Turpen channeled something from Michael about "traveling companions," which are like secondary essence-twins and the like, when your real essence-twin isn't available to you in a life in the physical....It was pretty fascinating.

OK, so how's that for how older souls jump out of the structure of things? Or is this just throroughly confusing?

> <re structures:> This structure would be needed from, say Infant soul to
> Late Mature or early Old, just to keep within the plan. Then as the Old soul got
> into the swing of things, where the last of the karma is being burned off, the
> awareness (albiet subconsciously) would tend to cast aside that structure, even by say
> third Old or so. (All things are possible)

Yes Pati, I agree--generally speaking, the younger soul ages NEED structure and these kind of limits for their purpose and growth, and it's entirely appropriate for a structure to be left behind once it's gotten too constricting for us. Even Michael has said regarding the Michael Teachings:
"Once you have mastered these teachings, let them go." (I don't remember where I saw this quote though <g>)....
It's like that with everything else too I think. :^) Younger souls like to explore life and spirituality within structure, and after they are finished with this, then they move on to exploring with less structure, more freedom and flexibility, more expanded and multidimensional.

> also >>>>"Since the purpose of existence is to acquire as many different
> perspectives as possible.....giving each fragment from the TAO a new way to
> excite its palate yes, Barbara's list is indeed impressive - and they ARE
> >>>>obviously out of the norm...."missions" or thrust into the public light
> in order to teach...to a wider audience >>>>
>
> I recall in Messages .. . . "Many will cycle off (afer 7th Old) with no more
> than a feeling that there is more going on than what I see." Also, "If all
> you do (by the time you cycle off) is learn to suspend judgement, you've done
> a LOT."

Yes yes! This is one major key--especially the suspension of judgement. That is one mighty task, even though it sounds simple. Just the mere AWARENESS of where our own judgements lie, gets to places inside of us that are HUGE.....

They also told of a lady who "lives in Alaska, tending her Dogs, who is now 7th level old "

Yes I remember that one--that person was supposedly Plato, the student of Socrates (who they said was a young soul then--Plato that is.)

Thanks Pati!!!

Love,
Lori

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:32:56 -0500
Subject: Re: 7th level old souls

Great post, Lori. Couldn't agree with you more. :)

Love,
Kate

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:07:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: re: 7th Old & Weird stuff

Hi (((((((Lori))))))) !

You're welcome ! But, I'd like to thank YOU TOO (is this a mutual admiration society blooming here?)

Some of that "Weird Stuff" Sounds absolutely NORMAL to me! AND loads of fun, from an experiential point of view! WOW ! Count me in!

From Antares, myself - know anyone else there?

I REALLY must get you to do a reading for me for even MORE validation of a lot of little odds and ends "that i've always KNOWN"

Everything you've said in the last couple of posts, rings like a dinner bell to a salivating dog (no, NOT Dave) (no disrespect to the dog). But, of course, you've been very much validating a LOAD of stuff (Weird and otherwise) for me ever since I discovered your site !

<<<<< "Once you've mastered these teachings, let them go. >>>> I think it was in More Messages .

Another phrase comes to mind >>>> "As soon as you realize there IS a play, you can leave it." <<<< Again not a direct quote, but the *Essence* is there <g>.

LOVE * LIGHT * PEACE * JOY JOY JOY (bears repeating!) <3 Pati* ;)

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:09:10 -0800
Subject: Re: more on 7th level

Great discussion by everyone who's joined in!!!

There's one truth to remember: if we are still here, we are not done yet (even if we happen to be or think we are at 7th level old). When the game is over, we go on to another game. The "maya" (self-delusion) of old souls is that they are better than others because they are older. How many of us believe our parents are "better" simply because they are older than we are?

It's all a matter of perspective -- we ARE the center of our universe, so many of us also get the idea that "we" are more important. All part of the illusion of this physical plane -- trying to learn about duality (right/wrong, up/down, yes/no, good/evil, positive/negative, etc). It's all an illusion too because we aren't really separate from each other, we just play a game pretending that we are.

Seems to be more "fun" that sitting in peace all day going "ohhhhmmmmm"

:)
--
Barbara Taylor

"The past cannot be changed, but the future is whatever you want it to be"

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:06:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Digest No. 1997-11-17 of Michael Teachings List

Thank you Lori, Dave, and others for the wonderful discussion about soul age. It made my day! I don't feel so alone anymore in speaking of these things.

I once channeled a Michael Reading chart for someone who was a beloved acupuncture teacher of several clients. I knew he was a revered spiritual leader, and I got him as being 7th level baby. His students were astonished. I double- and triple-checked, and it came up the same.

In reading old unpublished transcripts of early Michael channeling by Sarah Chambers and others, I saw that some great Indian spiritual teachers were/are young (or mature) souls.

To be a baby or young soul in India or China, nations with a rich, on-going spiritual heritage, is very different than to be a baby or young soul in the U.S. Bible belt. And even here, my former sister-in-law, who is young, is one of the most loving and tolerant people I know, and she was raised in Texas.

If a person has had several lifetimes spent in effective spiritual practices, he/she will be spiritually gifted, the same as if one had spent several lifetimes rigorously practicing music, one would be born with musical talent.

To me, soul age is best compared to physical age. If someone is physically old, he/she has passed through certain stages that younger people have not, and this can be perceived, even beyond the look of the body. There are more "layers" of experience present, but that alone doesn't necessarily mean that a 72-year-old, who is nearing the "finish line" of his/her life expectancy, is in any given moment kind, loving, awake, emotionally/mentally mature, wise, etc. Sometimes youngsters show more of those traits, albeit at their level of awareness.

If the 72-year-old recognizes and validates what he has learned in his long life, that can have a lot of impact on his behavior, but he can also choose to act out of his negative poles/chief feature/etc. Of course, it matters exactly what lessons he has concentrated on during his 72 years. He might have become an expert teacher but still be weak in interpersonal relationships, for instance.

To change analogies, one is not required to pass every class with an A+ in order to graduate college. You can scrape by with a C- in many, and even flunk some of them, and still get your degree. To progress in soul age, one must pass through the experiences, but the soul hasn't necessarily processed all of them, recognizing and validating all the lessons, although the experiences themselves do add some substance.

There's another hitch: the personality isn't the same as the soul--in each lifetime, the personality has to catch up with the soul. Sometimes one can sense a great or powerful soul locked inside a personality that hasn't done the work to mature mentally and emotionally, that hasn't broken the hold of selfishness and ignorance. So appearances can be deceiving.

An old soul who *has* recognized and validated his lessons, whose personality *has* done the work, and who is fully manifested, is normally a person who lives with a large perspective and sense of connection with the whole--there is an underlying feeling of lightness. Still, we are all human, and we all have our "stuff" and our blind spots. Even great gurus and teachers can have skeletons in their closet.

I think that soul age is one of the most difficult Michael traits to read from casual observation. As with all Michael traits, I think we have to be careful about jumping to conclusions about anyone. Again, appearances can be deceiving. It's good work to use the teachings and make educated guesses about the traits of people in our life, but it is also good work to stay open-minded, to not be too sure of anything we think we see. It is just our perception of the moment, the "frame of the movie" we're watching now. There is always more to learn.

Our beliefs are like our software. Every Michael student has slightly different software, has different pictures of various Michael traits, and looks for different clues for reading them. Followers of a particular channel tend to have similar software. Every channel sometimes looks at the work of other channels in disbelief: "How could s/he think that so-and-so is a warrior, or old?" or whatever. In being Michael students, we have to learn to make peace with the discrepancies and avoid an "I'm right, you're wrong" stance. However, it's very positive when channels and other students gather to non-defensively share notes. We can all learn, broaden, dispel misconceptions, and hopefully develop more consistent software, although I don't think there will ever be one fully consistent software.

I think that soul age is overrated in importance, although it is, of course, a useful concept: it identifies what lessons we're focusing on, where we are in our process, and whether we're wrapping a cycle up or plunging into it, for instance. The majority of my clients are mature, and I don't perceive much difference between them and old souls except that mature souls' lives are more about depth and intensity, whereas old souls' are more about height and lightness. I can generally *feel* a difference, but in terms of day-to-day getting along, again, I don't notice much tangible difference. Both mature and old souls are focused more inwardly, whereas infant, baby and young souls are focused more outwardly (there are individual exceptions ever here).

Many factors other than soul age are stronger for me in terms of their effect on relationships. Number one, more than any Michael trait, is whether a person has developed basic self-honesty and integrity; in other words, are they real? Role and goal certainly affect relationships more strongly for me, too. Just as I have friends of a wide range of physical ages, I also do of soul ages.

Sometimes I hear people blaming inappropriate behavior on someone's soul age ("those young souls in the Pentagon" for instance) when it might be more accurate to simply blame human ignorance, fear, or greed. There are some broad behavioral tendencies at each soul age, such as the young soul need to develop the ability to successfully impact the outer world, but there are positive and negative sides to every energy. Young souls are not intrinsically materialistic warmongers, even if many of the materialistic warmongers we hear about are young, since young souls often have the drive to make it to the top.

Wow, I didn't set out to write this much. Anyway, I'm really glad this discussion is happening.

Shepherd

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:45:00 +0800
Subject: Re: re: 7th Old

"pmp sarall" wrote on 17/11/97 1:03 am:

> Dave, I LOVE your analogy
> of >>>>> 7th Old Souls living quiet lives, almost as
> if they are sitting at the train station waiting to be taken to their new
> destination. <<<<<
>
> This is EXACTLY how I picture them. Also as "Sitting on the front porch
> watching the kids play."
>
> I thank you both for a veritable cornucopia of information.

As an old soul person, I would like to say that I am always on "retiring mode". The problem with that is that I become lethargic (sp?) too often and overlooked the option of no remaining in the state.

Just a comment.

Regards.

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 13:54:46 UT
Subject: RE: more on 7th level

Barbara you said:

"It's all an illusion too because we aren't really separate from each other, we just play a game pretending that we are."

LOLOLOL!!!!! Thanks... brought chuckles to this old soul!!! I keep rummaging over that word.."pretending". Seems to have a lot of power over us humans...:)

Lori you commented:

"BTW: Caris Turpen channeled something from Michael about "traveling companions," which are like secondary essence-twins and the like, when your real essence-twin isn't available to you in a life in the physical....It was pretty fascinating"

I was fortunate enough to be sitting in a group after the conference where she brought this subject up (it was the first I had heard of it) and I tell you, I felt like my essence jumped right up and hollered "YAHOO"!!!!! That resonated immediately, as it would explain the connection that I feel with a certain friend/business associate. She and I have traveled in and out of each others lives when it seemed we needed each other the most. She has supported me and I her in soooo many ways. No questions ever asked or required. I knew she wasn't my TC or ET since both of mine are discarnate, but I felt such a strong link with her. The minute Caris started describing the Traveling Companion it struck cords all over my body. My essence was loudly yelling at me....this is a YUP.... <g>

Shepherd you said:

"It's good work to use the teachings and make educated guesses about the traits of people in our life, but it is also good work to stay open-minded, to not be too sure of anything we think we see. It is just our perception of the moment, the "frame of the movie" we're watching now. There is always more to learn."

THANK YOU.... <vbg> This is sooooo very true for me.... Just when I think I've learned massive amounts of really GOOD stuff... I once again realize that "What do "I" know....We know such a miniscule amount"....LOL!!!!!!! There is always MORE...:)

Hugs, (cause we never give to many)
Diane

Date: 18 Nov 1997 08:51:41 -0700
Subject: My thoughts on soul age

Hi All,

De-lurking to join the conversation on Soul Age.... Although I am a new student to Michael Teachings and not by any means a channeler I do have some thoughts about the debate on soul age. This ties in several recent threads so I hope I can keep it coherent....First, back to the thread on parallel universes and Lori's post on space and time, couldn't a soul be living several different soul ages in different Universes and the outcome of each could be related to the soul age chosen. So I'm wondering if each of us has several soul ages going at once, hence the difficulty in determining soul age just by casual observance. Also I really think that one of the problems with Michael teaching and any highersource information is that our vocabulary and level of awareness hinders us from understanding the true meaning of the channeled information. I think it is likely that the "words" Michael uses such as baby, mature, old... are only used because they are the only words we can understand that even begin to accurately describe the concept. I am sure the true meaning of the concept of soul age is greatly diminished by our lack of appropriate vocabulary and our inability to comprehend most aspects of our universe and how it works. I really believe that Michael's biggest challenge is trying to teach us! It's somewhat akin to trying to teach Calculus to Crickets.... Just my fairly uneducated opinion.... Anyone agree? disagree?

Thanks for the soapbox,

Peace,
jen

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 01:10:12 +0800
Subject: Re: 7th level old souls

At 09:01 PM 11/17/97 -0000, Kate McMurry wrote:

> Another issue I have with using famous people such as your list above as
> illustrative examples of what 7th level "looks like" is that most all of
> these other than Patrick Stewart (is that "Captain Picard from Star
> Trek??) are major movers-and-shakers (i.e. transformers of the planet,
> most of them in a spiritual context). That is, they each chose to have a
> *huge* territory of teaching influence. This is *very*, very unusual,
> from my take on Michael's teachings, for OSs in general. Our mandate is
> to teach one or two people a lifetime, not the teeming masses.

> It's my understanding via the Michael teachings that in societies like
> ours, which are YS, and esp. if in a Baby Soul society--where the
> distance between the OS's consciousness/experience and that of the
> society as a whole is almost too huge to bridge--it can be *very* common
> for 7th level Olds to be "bums" aka street people, at the least, even
> when, in the OS's *own* eyes, they are functioning well and "normally,"
> at best they come off as extremely eccentric, even downright weird to
> the YS's and BS's. Matures can somewhat accept us, but even for them it
> is a stretch. For this reason, Olds tend to be loners or gravitate to
> little pockets of other Olds, in my experience.

And that last statement resonates with me very much. The detach feel of OS has "won" me the remark that I'm aloof, as if "the world is drunk, only I'm sober", at the tender age of 10. At that time, I was probably just manifesting Baby Soul. Is there other OS's who share similar experience (memory)?

> At this current time, a lot of OSs are choosing a karma of fame, in the
> arts, esp., and I think that's because we OS's have got a karmic
> "mandate" from the universe to, whether we want to or not, help as
> spiritual midwives as the planet moves from young to mature. And, btw,
> in my perception, OS's will appear less and less "weird" as the planet
> as a whole matures. :)

> In my perception, right now it is the Baby and Infant Souls who are
> having the hardest time surviving the change. As OS's, things are
> finally, gradually, starting to shift in our direction.
>
> For what it's worth, Gloria, I asked Michael what you are and they
> confirmed for me that you are 7th level Old. I think being an OS is a
> mixed blessing, like being a highly creative person is. In this culture,
> OS's and artists (and many, many OS's choose also to be artists) are
> *not* appreciated. So the concept of a "contest" and feeling "superior"
> about being an OS, in my perception, is a joke. I have rarely, rarely
> met an OS, esp. late OS, and I have met dozens and dozens, who aren't
> suffering from low self esteem (alternating with painful grandiosity),
> depression, and who have gone in and out of "self-medicating" themselves > with recreational drugs, food and sex to help with the existential pain > of being too totally weird to fit in. The people who seem to have
> adjusted the best are those lucky enough (or who made the karmic choice
> of it) to be born to OS's (though that's a mixed blessing, because, as I
> say, OS's tend to be highly dysfunctional and frequently make *terrible*
> parents since parenting forces you to relate, constantly and intimately
> with an alienating, disempowering YS culture in a way that can tear you apart).
>
> Kate, throwing in her two-cents worth (and it might not even be worth a
> penny <G> )

No need to humble yourself... unnecessary. :-) I'm very glad to be on this Michael List to learn and share.

Blessings.

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:16:47 -0400
Subject: New to the brew....where do I fit in

Hi Everyone

OK my curiosity is too much for me now and I want to have more understanding so I can connect and be able to contribute sometimes.

Can any of you tell me how I can find out my soul age and all the other important stuff so my mind can have something new to relate to and maybe my soul can find family?

I've only channeled Michael once about 8 yrs ago and I didn't know at the time who Michael was but his enegy was wonderful and at the time I was in a very deep place and his encredible sense of humor had me laughing and crying tears of joy that lifted me right out of the heaviness.When I asked who this was he signed Michael. I don't know if this is the same as you know and also I havn't been able to do channeled writing much since.

So if someone knows how I can find out who I am in this format I?d be ever so grateful.
I'd like to be more a part of this family,you all feel very loving to me....
     Michel

(pronounced Michele)
Chile, SouthAmerica

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:18:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Wild cards

Thanks, Dean, for your detailed accounting of the conference.

JP announced at the conference that I was a good example of a "wild card" and asked me to stand up. I attended a couple of the Wed. night groups in September where she explained the "energy ring" structure and the wild card idea.

She said that about 15% of fragments are wild cards, but I am the only one among the people who commonly go to her groups that she can identify as such. In the numbering scheme that JP uses wild cards are counted the same way as the regular fragments, but there are fewer of them. She said that I was the #3 wild card fragment in the 3rd entity of Cadre 1 in JP' s numbering or Cadre 3 in Shepherd's. I attach between the regular fragments #12 and #13. 12 and 13 are the 5th and 6th fragments in the second row down from the top in the top block of the entity structure on the side that would be regarded as the first of three.

Interestingly enough, in Shepherd's cadence numbering my "position" and "cadence" are both 6, and if Michael was counting *upward* rather than downward, the #13 fragment (as I described above) would be the 6th position in the *6th* row within a block of 49. Could this help inspire someone to get the whole scheme of translation between JP and Shepherd's cadence numbering systems?

Michael via JP in those Wednesday groups said that in our cadres the roles are thoroughly mixed up in the energy structure; there are not whole solid arrays of one role marching along together as the earlier books suggest.

When JP was describing the wild card idea in the conference I got a glimmer of more on the subject, but I haven't been able to get it to clarify. I'll describe what I got so that possibly it will stimulate others to work out the theory. JP has said that she hasn't been given huge amounts of the detailed data on the "energy ring" structure yet, and that includes the explanation of wild cards.

The first thought I had was that people like "starseeds" or anyone coming from elsewhere and joining an already-formed cadre/entity formation would have to attach by something like the wild-card mechanism. [Which is that above the crown chakra a wild card fragment has a 7-fingered "hand" which joins in a 3-way handshake with the hands of a pair of side-by-side fragments in the regular structure.....the other 5 connection points are not tied in to the regular structure, or if they are, they connect in irregular ways.] [The regular connection points are the top, as described, one below the feet, "hands" on both sides, and two links from one's back to the corresponding positions on the other two sides of the triangular structure.]

I noted that I have been told that I either have "ascended" and come back to this lifetime, or I will "ascend" in this life and come back in my next life (I don't think it matters which would be true) so I thought that since I am unusual in that respect, maybe that correlates with wild-cardness.

Then I had the thought that it must be awfully hard to go from infant soul on up with only links to two fragments rather than the 6 that the regular fragments have (or 7 or 8 if they have wild card fragments attached), and that that would lead to there seeming to be two distinct types of fragments (because their experience would be different in lasting ways) and that if this were true, someone, if not lots of someones, would have noticed it before.

I thought that I could well be a latecomer to the 3rd entity since I have noticed that I have less strong energy connections with my entity-mates than other people seem to have with theirs. Then the contrary idea came in, which is that the channels all see me as obviously having the energy of the 3rd entity; and since that must go back to the formation of the entity, it would seem to contradict my being a latecomer. Perhaps the wild-card theory would account for some way by which my connections go out more into the other entities than do those of regular fragments.

Well, I hope someone gets more of this!

By the way, I believe Dean is incorrect that essence twins and task companions are the people connected to our two "back" links. As of fairly recently JP and the group did not have any info about how ETs and TCs fit into the structure. At that time they were not the two "back" connections. If she said otherwise at the conference please correct me.

All the best, Ed

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:19:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: introduction

Hello:

My name is Linda! Hi!

I currently live in Whitehorse, Yukon Territory..Canada!

I was born in Anchorage, Alaska and I am fifty years young!

I have three full grown sons...Ken 29, Charles 28, Ron 27.

My oldest has three children...9 yr old son, 7 year old daughter, and a 3 year old daughter.

My youngest has a 3year old son!

I am not married to their father anymore. I am not with a man who I am very blessed to have in my life.

I have had a hard life...but haven't we all. I look back at that life and I rejoice and thank the Creator for all the road blocks, the pain...for it has made me who I am today!

I am not sure where my life is leading me. But down deep in my heart...I feel I am here to help my brother and sisters of Mother Earth!

I have been attuned in Reiki (USNI) and (Seichim). I recently gotten my Master/Teacher in Reiki (USNI) and currently at Master level in Seichim....not Master/Teacher.

I hold Reiki near and dear to my heart. If at anytime my heart feels the pain of others, I try my best to reach out to them. Then with their permission I send them the Universal Life Energy. If its for their Highest good then what ever is happening it will be of assistance.

I am currently studing the healing properties of stones. Isn't it totally awesome to know they have healing properties to help those who are in need!!

I am a First Nations person from Canada. I have lived in the States!

I came back to Canada over 12 years ago!! I learned much about my culture! I have learn much about the healing properties of plants.

I have so much to remember ... in order to help others.

I have a dream of having a healing lodge...and hope to bring it to reality!

I have thru life experiences that LOVE is very important....LOVE heals.

I have worked hard to where I am at now....and I love everyone. Many who has come into my life have given me so much, and I hope I have done the same for them.

I look forward to each new day, each new meeting with people, animals, rocks, trees, or even feeling the wind, rain drop or snowflake!

I look forward to the future of list in what it has to offer, and hope that I can add some too!!

Love, Light, Laughter and Peace

Linda

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:12:38 +0000
Subject: Soul level / chief feature

At 18 Nov 1997 18:08:59 J J Tan wrote:

> And that last statement resonates with me very much. The detach feel of OS
> has "won" me the remark that I'm aloof, as if "the world is drunk, only I'm
> sober", at the tender age of 10. At that time, I was probably just
> manifesting Baby Soul. Is there other OS's who share similar experience
> (memory)?

I vas wondering if you were mixing the aloofness of the Arrogance Chief Feature whith the soul age as the Chief Feature is working on us from the minut we wake up in the morning til we go to sleep in the night, but the soul age or soul level is more like a general overwiew (more like the Attitude). I think, and that goes for all of us, that we do not take enough notice of the Chief Feature.

Blessings to you all!!
Jon Bjarni

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:51:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 7th & other old souls

Thanks, all, for the various good posts on 7th old souls. Each post had parts I liked and parts I disagreed with as being too over-simple. So, here's my little addition.

Firstly, one of JP and Aaron's most useful tapes is called "Late Mature and Old Soul Levels" and covers each one from 4th M to 7th Old. Here are a few of the intersting bits I recalled about old levels:

2nd Old until a few hundred years ago was usually the first time a person learned to read and write. He (normally) would then devour all the classics in Greek and Latin and could actually feel like he was getting a good portion of everything there was of value in history, philosophy, and so on. 2nd Old dives into the task of learning about the whole world from a large "global" perspective. 3rd Old is quiet, contemplative, lives a fairly simple life and is ideally suited for a spiritual path life. 4th and 5th Old are progressively more confident and open in what they do as old soul teachers in some way. 6th Old persons finish their loose ends of karma and agreements and are driven to do their teaching work so hard that they usually "die in their boots".

After 6th is done, a person can come back as long as they want to keep coming back in 7th. 7th Old are often teachers or wise people just like 6th except for the important difference that the compelling edge of urgency of 6th is gone, so 7th may be more easy going or "lazy".

In the past, as Kate notes well, in predominantly younger-soul cultures and before modern large-scale communication media and technology, there wasn't much place or use for old souls and so it was common that they were low-profile teachers of one or two students, if they were lucky to find that many. They could do this as hobos or court jesters or in various other low-status positions. Many lived quiet lives within the church, which provided many of the few enclaves of spirituality and civilization available.

But that is all past and 7th old (and other old) people today have vastly more potential students to teach, a much higher societal pull for spiritual and other old-soul knowledge, and the historically different environment of "quickening" that has been affecting us all now. It is therefore less commonly the pattern for 7th old (or other old) to be hobos, "bums" and such now than before, and I would expect that most of the old soul street people types are doing self-karmas before the 7th Old level.

7th Old differs from all other soul age levels in its resolve not to start up new karmic entanglements. More than any others they will set up their lives to have plenty of spirit guidance to help steer them from getting in trouble or making karma before they grow up to realize their true perspective.

7th Old certainly would be most willing to be assassinated for a good cause (as Jesus, Lincoln, Gandhi, Anwar Sadat, etc.) or to live a saintly life.

My guess is that it would be quite common in the current age for 7th Olds to live a life of substantial light and wisdom but that the great majority of them don't get much recognition or celebrity, because the recognition and celebrity come from younger souls and mature souls and depend on many whims of chance. Obviously many old souls (and others) choose to live quiet, "ordinal" lives that attract little notice outside small circles of associates.

I think the general flavor of most of the 7th Old series of posts has exaggerated the degree to which 7th Olds would seem to be subject to the various drama and karmic difficulty of, say, mature or less old souls. Yes, they can have "growth" and "passion" and many have chosen difficult incarnational situations as challenges, so it may seem they are as "dysfunctional" as others, but in the long run most of our 7th Olds are in just the beginning of what will be long and fruitful lives which later on will be considered to have been blessed with light and wisdom.

So if someone seems to be manifesting way below 7th Old, they probably are doing just that. Let's all create the idea that we will in some way help support people of all soul ages to manifest their true soul age. The disparity between real and manifested soul age is a major source of spiritual discontent for people which they feel in a vague way as a failure to live up to their potential. Since they do not have these concepts, it sits unexamined. The wider the disparity, the more likely a person goes into drugs, alcohol, or other addictive self karmas as a solution to their pain.

All the best, Ed

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:11:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: 7th level old souls

Just a brief note to Lori's generally excellent posts....

1) About the numbers of old souls: Sarah Chambers channeled, I forget whether it's in the early transcripts or recently, the numbers of people in each old soul level. I recall it as about 10,000 worldwide each for 6th and 7th Old, and somewhat higher but under 100,000 for 3rd through 5th Old. There were quite a lot more of early old, but i don't have the numbers available. It seems to me this must have been from the 1970s since there are many. many more older souls around now, and they continue to be very heavily skewed so that a high fraction of young children are mature or old souls in the US now, while among people age 50 it might be something like 2 or 3% old.

2) Occam's razor: If someone really doesn't seem to fit the description of their channeled soul age, maybe the channeling is wrong? That's a simpler explanation than some of the reasoning I've seen here.

All the best, Ed

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:43:55 -0500
Subject: Re: 7th Old

> BTW, I would think also that one with many cycles already under his
> belt would tend to be even MORE eccentric - Playing the game to the
> HILT as it were! With Curve Balls, Spit balls and underhand throws!

Pati, I'm so glad you brought this up! I meant to, and let it slip my mind. Yes, there are 7th level Olds, and then there are 7th level olds. I think when you get a late Old who has been through many, many cycles, then you might be dealing with a canididate an Infinite Soul might interview for doing a "walk-in." <G> I don't think just any 7th level Old would do. <G>

In fact, the more cycles one has done, the closer one might come to the stereotype of Old Soul that we have inherited from classical Eastern tradition, like Hinduism, where you aren't considered really "old" as a soul unless you've had a few hundred thousand lives. <G>

> Dave, I LOVE your analogy of >>>>> 7th Old Souls living quiet lives,
> almost as if they are sitting at the train station waiting to be taken to their new
> destination. <<<<<
>
> This is EXACTLY how I picture them. Also as "Sitting on the front
>porch watching the kids play."

I agree. This is far, far, far more typical than fame and transforming millions. The job of the OS is merely to "successfully teach one other person," not transform entire cultures. That's the job of an Infinite Soul.

Kate

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:59:15 -0500
Subject: Re: 7th level old souls

J J Tan wrote:

> > is a stretch. For this reason, Olds tend to be loners or gravitate to
> > little pockets of other Olds, in my experience.
>
> And that last statement resonates with me very much. The detach feel
> of OS has "won" me the remark that I'm aloof, as if "the world is drunk,
> only I'm sober", at the tender age of 10. At that time, I was probably just
> manifesting Baby Soul. Is there other OS's who share similar experience
> (memory)?

I do! <G>

> Or artists have the "passport" to be eccentrics anyway? :-) I mean
> it as a social point of view. The society at large expects artists
> (artistes) to be "weird people", temperamental, strange, eccentric, etc.
> or the "eccentric scientist" category. So OS's may be just "playing out the
> role", and then perhaps "the role took over". On the other hand, my
> personal view is that I can't (or don't want to) compete with YS's in
> the society of YS's, so perhaps choosing a career that doesn't involve
> that much stress and competition.

That makes a lot of sense! :)

> No need to humble yourself... unnecessary. :-) I'm very glad to be
> on this Michael List to learn and share.

Thanks! :)

Kate

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:53:30 -0600
Subject: Thanks

I would like to add my thanks for those who have reproted on the Michael conference. I wonder if there might be a possibility that some of the sessions might be made available for distribution?

The discussion on 7th level/old souls has also been very informative--especially to someone new to the teachings.

One question I would like to ask the list is concerning the "body" types. I have not really reading anything which explains how one may determine body types or what it means they to spiritual growth. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Bill Lanning

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 01:09:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Thanks

Dear Bill -- A brief reply on body types.....there is material on them in Stevens's books and Shepherd's book. Apparently the Gurdjieff movement had similar concepts of body types and gave them the names of the planets, which I don't buy as being necessarily so, that is, I don't regard it as obvious that there is a connection between the body types and the planets so much as the planets are used as symbols for certain archetypes.

It doesn't seem to me that they have any real relevance to spiritual growth, as that happens with any of them. They provide another dimension of variety in our experience of life. They help to provide the interesting and useful factor of having differing degrees of physical attraction between bodies; the body type template on which the body is built is a major determinant of how much we are attracted physically or not to someone.

I believe that the AMT will have tapes available because they were making recordings during the conference.

All the best, Ed

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:50:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: re: body types

Hi (((((((Bill))))))) !

I'm not really that familiar with body types, that is, it never really "grabbed me."

But one reason it may be very good to know (via a personal reading, generally) would be to add to your comfort of your physical appearance.

In other words, if your body type is Lunar, for example, with Solar added in, you might not feel so very bad if you're on the heavy side. And vise Versa, If you're Mercurial, with a little Venusian added in, you won't feel so bad if your thin as a rail.

I know that when my body types were channelled, I could see that I am right where I need to be (weight-wise/body size) and there was no need for me to go on a starvation diet, for example to try to become like Barbie! (Not that I ever would anyway - I've always been comfortable where I'm at, with a few very short term exceptions).

Like I said, I've never been "pulled to" that particular area of study, but I DID find this part valuable for me.

As Ed said, Shepherd's book is quite good in this area (and many others).

SEE YA! LOVE * PEACE * LIGHT * JOY <3 Pati* ;-)

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:58:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: re: Curve balls & Spit balls

Hi Kate !

I was just thinking if an Old soul can be more eccentric - throwing curve balls, Spit balls, and underhanded throws, Can he also "steal HOME?"

I agree the 7th Old soul DOES aim at "successfully teach one other person" - The Man from La Mancha - Don Quixote - comes to mind. He wasn't exactly a Jusus or Mohamed (or even a Patrick Stewart, for that matter). But was a very unobtrusive sort of guy within his own space. Also comes to mind Mary Summer Rain and her teacher, No Eyes.

TO ALL LOVE * LIGHT PEACE * JOY JOY JOY <3 Pati* :)

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:11:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: re: Linda & Mixchel NEW BREW

Hi Linda ! Hi again Mixchel !

I'm kind of like a doctor on this thing yet - just practicing!

Welcome to the board (((((((Linda))))))) ! If you check the post entitled "Mixchel -
re: new to the brew , he asked about finding out where he fit in in this system of teaching - On my post of New to the Brew, I listed this sit and Barbara's to get you started - as well as the book titles that we've been referring to.

Have Fun - sit down and stay a while - if you go through the archives (past) you can pick up on some pretty interesting info on all kinds of topics ! ENJOY!

Glad to have Chile and Canada represented - We have others in Canada too, I believe - but not certain who. ALL are welcome! ((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))) open hug to ALL

LOVE * PEACE * LIGHT * JOY JOY JOY !!!! <3 Pati* :)

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:09:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: introduction

Dear Linda -- I drove to Alaska a few years ago and passed through Whitehorse both ways and stayed over in the hotel, is it Athabasca?, sort of a youth hostelish place. Then I went south on the Cassiar Highway on the way back. Other readers should know you have to go hundreds of miles, quite a few hundreds, to find another town of comparable size. It's a very beautiful part of the world and very short of people compared to what we're all used to.

I had a temp job categorizing websites for Excite and one thing that impressed me the most was that the rural places in the US and Canada were being amazingly energized by the internet. Lots of towns smaller than Whitehorse have internet providers and sophisticated computer folks who have set up links to everything from local to global, and suddenly the whole world is accessible in a way even city people didn't have a few years ago....they could go to librairies and museums and so on, but not at home.

This all has a wonderful implication. Rural places and areas that have been in decline for ages are going to be revitalizing fairly dramatically, as people, let's say young, mature and old souls, who left home to go off to the big city excitement far away, bring back energy, money, and knowhow back to small town places where suddenly the quality of life looks relatively a lot better vs. the big city rat race than it looked before the internet. I'm not saying this is a general movement, but there are and will be some people who feel called back to the country who now can do it more easily with all the computer and communications possibilities helping to create new ways to make a living different from the traditional ones. And the potentials for children's education are so much more expanded now with the internet. I think we'll see quite a trend happening as mature souls especially discover these possibilities for ways out of the big city stresses.

Then the global grounding and stabilizing of good energy is better advanced as good things happen in many smaller points widely spread around the planet.

Glad to have you aboard and with us!

All the best, Ed

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:03:03 +0000
Subject: Manifesting Essence

My e-mail runneth over!

My head spinneth wildly!

Whew! Thanks to everyone contributing to the current threads.

Excuse me while I change the subject for a moment.

In _Messages_from_Michael_ , chapter 12, Michael briefly touches on manifesting essence. Quote follows:

THERE IS A PERIOD, AROUND AGE THIRTY-FIVE, WHEN BREAKTHROUGH MAY OCCUR AND THE ESSENCE MANIFESTS... IF YOU DO NOT MANIFEST AT THIS STAGE, IT IS UNLIKELY THAT YOU WILL LATER.

Of course, what they are speaking of is the fourth monad. Numerologically, this correlates with the second life opportunity and life obstacle.

I am fast approaching this juncture, and quite frankly, don't want to miss the boat. I have known this for some time, but reading that statement from Michael really drove it home.

I am looking for a couple of things, if anyone would care to assist me here. 1) Can anyone share personal or second-hand observational testimony on how best to facilitate this process; 2) Can anyone recommend specific passages or sections in any of the Michael books that deal with this, or even a cassette that may be available from one of the channels; and 3) Can anyone recommend a channel that might be especially adept at accessing this particular type of information?

Thank you. And now back to our regularly scheduled program....

John

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:30:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: To Jen re time and soul ages

Dear Jen -- I would add a few thoughts that might simplify ideas a little.

First, we have lots of confusion happen because time differs in the different planes. I'm not going to get into all that, since I'd embarrass myself, probably! But: numerous sources as well as Michael have said that time as we know it (we can observe it by motions of physical bodies in the heavens or clocks) exists only in the physical plane. It is said that we really need time here because there is so much to do and experience and there needs to be a way to spread it out so it doesn't all happen at once! And so that we can use before-and-after-ness quantitatively (how long ago?) to spread out our creations of past and future. This is all an agreed-upon part of physical plane life that makes it such a fine game.

When we are in, or focused on, higher planes from astral on up, time is different. To varying degrees there is a qualitative before and after (sometimes called "timing") where we can know the sequence of events but there isn't a quantity of how much time passes between events. I believe that in higher-up planes, in ways we can't understand because of limitations of our brains and habits of using them, the awareness is that all things are happening simultaneously. Perhaps there isn't even a before and after there. It isn't really vital for us to try to understand the "physics" in higher planes until and unless we are in them.

So channeled sources come from different planes with different perspectives of time, and it makes for translation problems.

From a high enough perspective we are simultaneously living in different planetary cycles and different soul ages as well as being devic consciousness and who knows what all else, and there is (probably?) no order of sequence in the Tao.

From a lower perspective closer to here, there is a sequence of an essence's lifetimes. They develop by organic growth. You live a life, essence looks at it and is moved to want to do whatever it wants to do in the next one. Each life builds up another layer of the onion and is slightly wiser and deeper in an inner sense.

There are varying accounts of how essences arrange lifetimes in related groups according to some theme or location. The implication is that the continuity grows within such a group somewhat (in some way) independent of how the essence's experience develops in other groups of lives. However this works, I don't have any position as to whether I believe it or not other than "it sure isn't obvious".

Michael describes our lives as being in a sequence, as I mentioned. Life #217 follows #216 and is in ways a reaction to or result of what happened in #216. The vast majority of the time, (I believe I heard it was in the 95% or so range), succeeding lives move along in time parallel with the larger society and cultures we're affiliated with. That is, your next life will follow rather than precede this one in physical time. In general this is the pattern because the other souls we are having dealings with are growing in parallel with us, and if we want to come back next time in some continuity with our experience this time, the river flows only one way.

However an essence can just as well, if it wants to, incarnate back in time. Life #216 could be now and #217 in 1500 or in Atlantis. It wouldn't normally be the case for an essence to go so far back without a clear reason for doing so.

Suppose #217 is in 1500. We have the intrinsic ability to "remember" future lives just as well as past lives, where that refers to physical time. (I am not sure whether we have such an ability to remember or to know the future when that refers to future in the sequence of lifetimes.) #217 in 1500 has a much harder time remembering 1997 than vice versa because our 1997 reality is so alien to 1500. We have history of the past to refer to but they can't even conceive of much of our present reality.

In the vast majority of cases where essence has gone back in time the individual lives will not be aware of each other in any way.

It seems to me that Nostradamus and other past prophets may have been especially strong examples of the case where someone living through an Armageddon, end of the world, crash and burn scenario goes back into the past to warn people so they can change their ways and have a better outcome. It would seem that to be such a prophet one would have to be quite an old soul with a clear understanding of things and confident in one's ability to carry back the 1997 memories to 1500 (or whatever the case may be) clearly enough to be able to do the job well.

This all leads into really confusing quantum physics ideas of time and parallels which I don't really understand or want to do the work to. It seems to be true that extraterrestrials understand and use time travel in ways that baffle us, probably because our brain structure or patterns are solidly locked into 3D reality because that's what we have always needed to do in the past.

So.....the gist of all this in regard to the various soul age postings is that there is a certain amount of artisan/scholarish theory construction happening. I believe essence (and look in Shepherd's book for the distinction between "essence" and "soul", it's good) does advance, just as people grow up, slowly; and essence doesn't hop around doing different soul ages out of kilter. If someone sees that pattern either they are not getting the sequence correctly or there is some other error in the computer.

One last example of this: if "hopping around" were correct and my essence for some reason wanted to live in the jungle next lifetime -- say my essence really is drawn to a certain place in nature and/or agreements and karmas and just wants to do it -- my next life could be in the jungle but *not* as an infant soul. *Soul age can't reverse.* You can and do manifest younger soul ages often, and people easily make mistakes in guessing soul ages because the manifested soul age is usually lower and more obvious than the true one. It is rare and difficult to manifest older than one's true soul age, Shepherd's charts had only one such case, where a 6th mature guy manifested 7th and Michael went to great lengths to explain the unusualness of this. (The person was heavily imprinted by both parents, both spiritual teachers, so that in appearance and manner he seemed to be 7th mature.) Certainly it would be very hard to manifest a substantially older soul age just as it's very hard for children to be adults. As one final aside, when we consider someone is manifesting X soul age, it is just a judgment based on our own culture, values, prejudices and ideas of what people are about, which differ a lot.

All the best, Ed

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:45:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Old soul disease

Dear Aquila -- Good post, and I think it's almost universal in our culture for old souls to have feelings like yours in the long hard years before you discover the good stuff.

For me the most satisfying use of the Michael teachings has been the perhaps 50 or so times I've explained soul ages to an old soul and seen such a dramatic lightening up as the huge weight of all the societal putdown blows off.

I think/feel it would be really good if in thinking about old souls and dealing with them, we would focus less on the rather judgmental slant of some of the material in the books -- we're lazy, depressed most of the time, inclined to be bums, etc., not much purpose for living except to be lazy -- and focus on the positive, that our lives have just as much intrinsic purpose as younger soul lives, that our essence has definite things in mind, and that we are in some way (generally fitting no particular mold) wise people or teachers. Old soul lifetimes are about developing the 5th chakra communication aspects of our being.

All the best, Ed

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:46:47 -0800
Subject: Re: Body Types

Bill asked

<< I have not really reading anything which explains how one may determine body types or what it means to spiritual growth. >>

There is information in the "Michael Handbook" and "Michael: The Basic Teachings" however the best information is in the book "Body Types" (see my Michael books page -- http://www.itstime.com/mbooks.htm) for details.

I disagree with Ed -- body types can have quite an influence on our life as they are chosen to either support our purpose in particular ways or give us challenges to overcome (if we want that). We've gotten quite a bit of information about body types in some of our workshops. For example, often people will choose a greatly hampered body in order to focus on particular issues (ie., Stephen Hockings, Helen Keller).

About Patrick Stewart -- yes, that's the Captain. I'd say he's having a major positive international influence. It seems to be obvious by definition that famous people have a wider reach than the less-famous. However, we must each teach everything we know to someone else before we cycle off. With a wider reach, we can do that more quickly.

Things like the Internet now provide an international reach to even us ordinary folks. Imagine how difficult it would be to have to travel all over the globe finding those thousands of folks that I have agreements to teach world-wide. With the Internet, they are finding me and I can fulfill thousands of agreements easily and effortlessly (a major goal of this old soul :).

Another comment about old souls: there are so many folks here simply because of the shift that is happening. Older souls have an obligation to provide some guidance to the younger souls. Many of us have multiple lives going on here also, which adds to the population explosion right now. If it wasn't so exciting to be here and we didn't have a role as old souls, we wouldn't be here now...we'd be humming on some mountain on the astral plane.

--
Barbara Taylor

"The past cannot be changed, but the future is whatever you want it to be"

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:59:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Reply to Barbara on body types

Dear Barbara -- What I was saying about bodytypes was meant to be limited to the "bodytype" overleaf idea. Indeed, as you say, essences choose special body conditions or abilities or disabilities for various reasons to aid the essence's purposes and this is in addition to the bodytype overleaf.

All the best, Ed

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:13:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: more on 7th level

> Great discussion by everyone who's joined in!!!

It *IS* a great discussion. I'm enjoying all of your insights!

> There's one truth to remember: if we are still here, we are not done yet
> (even if we happen to be or think we are at 7th level old). When the
> game is over, we go on to another game. The "maya" (self-delusion) of
> old souls is that they are better than others because they are older.
> How many of us believe our parents are "better" simply because they are
> older than we are?

Thank you so much for bringing up that point! I recently found out my soul age and that of my task partner, who is a second level O/S compared to my fifth level mature. Since then I've found my attitude had changed toward her, which is ridiculous because I've known her for 17 years and know that she, like the rest of us, still has a lot to work on. Still I couldn't shake this feeling of "reverence" for her because her soul-age is older than my own. She has lately been looking at me askance and telling me to lighten up, but perhaps because I am also a scholar and have such a love for facts, knowledge and teachers, that I hadn't, until reading Barbara's posting, been able to shake that foolish "she knows more than I do and deserves respect for it" headtrip I was on. Thank you for the psychic jolt. I needed it!

Love to all.

Yvonne McNair

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:17:23 -0700
Subject: Things to Remember About the Mid-Life Passage

At the AMT conference one of the lectures given was on the Fourth Internal Monad. This information was delivered by Kay Kamala, a Michael channel, who swears it is a survivable passage. There are a lot of folks on this list who have entered and have successfully come through this death-by-every-conceivable-trial monad, and who, after years of psychotherapy, soul retrieval and ritual, are finally able to be vertical today.

These are some of the points Kay elaborated on:

1. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

2. YOU WILL BE LOOKING AT THE DEATH OF SOMETHING, BECAUSE THIS IS A DEATH PROCESS. IT CAN BE THE FIRST TIME THAT REAL LIMITATIONS ARE FACED AND ACCEPTED. YOU WILL LET GO OF SOMETHING VERY BIG.

3. YOU WILL MEET YOUR MOST PRIMARY FEARS AND HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE FRIENDS WITH THEM.

4. YOU WILL FEEL LIKE YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE ON THE PLANET IN PAIN, AND THAT THE PAIN WILL LAST FOREVER. YOU WILL KNOW DEPRESSION AND EMOTIONAL ISOLATION.

5. YOU WILL DISCOVER HOW YOU MEET CHANGE AND UNCERTAINTY.

6. YOU WILL FEEL LIKE YOU ARE LOSING YOUR MIND, AND NOT BE SURE OF WHO YOU ARE, OR WHAT YOU WANT.

7. YOU WILL BE TRANSFORMED BY THE PROCESS IN A POSITIVE WAY--FOR THE REMAINDER OF YOUR LIFE. YOU WILL BE LIBERATED FROM WHAT DOESN'T SERVE YOU OR BELONG TO YOU ANYMORE.

Essence is stepping out, leading the way. The urge to manifest the life task/s becomes quite powerful, even overwhelming, and the worst part is that you really don't have a flipping clue what that is. Your nights are charged with restlessness, your body covered in sweat, and the landscape of your dreams is haunted by shadowy figures and gargantuan mouths with impossibly long teeth, dripping venomous saliva, and they crave the silk of your flesh and the crunch of your bones. You're fired without retirement, your wife/husband leaves you, your savings mysteriously disappear. No one wants a has-been, the antithesis of the young soul up-and-comer. You become a predator living a dumpster-looting existence, stray cats and sleek roaches your new companions. The moon rises each night, sometimes barely a whisper of a crescent, and sometimes huge and looming, leering at your loser status, and threatening to eclipse whatever sun may remain of your bewildered and ragged lot.

I've been through it, John. If you want to call, I'd be happy to talk about it. Death was everywhere, but so was new life. I just can't decide which are the green parts. We're with you, babe. Have some courage. If not, the nearest toilet will suffice.

Love,
Gloria

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:50:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: 7th olds/multi-frags

Just thought I'd add something I heard about older souls - I think the latter half of the age - is that once fragments get to that point, the regrouping of the entity has already begun. In other words, there is more than one fragment walking around in the body. Which could explain why I thought I heard a voice in my head one time say, "Who invited you and your karma anyway?"

This is my first day on the mailings list. I tried to lurk, but I just couldn't do it.

Blessings,
John Clark

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:44:21 +0800
Subject: Re: Soul level / chief feature

At 11:01 PM 11/18/97 -0000, Jon Bjarni Bjarnason wrote:

> At 18 Nov 1997 18:08:59 J J Tan wrote:
>
> > And that last statement resonates with me very much. The detach feel of OS
> > has "won" me the remark that I'm aloof, as if "the world is drunk, only I'm
> > sober", at the tender age of 10. At that time, I was probably just
> > manifesting Baby Soul. Is there other OS's who share similar experience
> > (memory)?
>
> I vas wondering if you were mixing the aloofness of the Arrogance Chief
> Feature whith the soul age as the Chief Feature is working on us from the
> minut we wake up in the morning til we go to sleep in the night, but the
> soul age or soul level is more like a general overwiew (more like the
> Attitude). I think, and that goes for all of us, that we do not take enough
> notice of the Chief Feature.
>
> Blessings to you all!!
> Jon Bjarni

Thank you for your comment! :-) Well, I have channeled Chief Features as primary Self-Deprecation, and secondary Impatience. The Self-Deprecation may occasionally slid over to Arrogance, but I don't think it would give me the "air" of aloofness. There might be subconscious "superiority" feel, but I believe it was not out of criticism, or fear of vulnerability. Or perhaps I was just acting it out as if. :-) Well, it was about 20 years ago, so I could be wrong.

Regards.

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:53:15 -0800
Subject: Re: My thoughts on soul age (1997-46/11)

| From: "Jennifer Slatten"
| Subject: My thoughts on soul age
| Date: 18 Nov 1997 08:51:41 -0700
|
| Hi All,
|
| De-lurking to join the conversation on Soul Age.... Although I am a new
| student to Michael Teachings and not by any means a channeler I do have
| some thoughts about the debate on soul age. This ties in several recent
| threads so I hope I can keep it coherent....First, back to the thread on
| parallel universes and Lori's post on space and time, couldn't a soul be
| living several different soul ages in different Universes and the
| outcome of each could be related to the soul age chosen.

As I understand it, you don't just choose a soul age and jump into another universe. You spin off another universe at an important juncture in your life. At that time, of course, your soul age would be the same in both universes. It seems not unreasonable, however, for your two selves to advance at different rates in the two universes, but I would guess those rates would probably be not too different from each other.

| So I'm wondering if each of us has several soul ages going at once,
| hence the difficulty in determining soul age just by casual observance.

That casual observance would be of (and in) one universe, so I don't see how that would contribute to difficulty in determining soul age (in that universe).

| Also I really think that one of the problems with Michael teaching and
| any highersource information is that our vocabulary and level of
| awareness hinders us from understanding the true meaning of the
| channeled information. I think it is likely that the "words" Michael
| uses such as baby, mature, old... are only used because they are the
| only words we can understand that even begin to accurately describe the
| concept. I am sure the true meaning of the concept of soul age is
| greatly diminished by our lack of appropriate vocabulary and our
| inability to comprehend most aspects of our universe and how it works.
| I really believe that Michael's biggest challenge is trying to teach us!
| It's somewhat akin to trying to teach Calculus to Crickets.... Just my
| fairly uneducated opinion.... Anyone agree? disagree?

This is correct, and is mentioned in several places in the literature.

As far as Michael's teaching us, this is from _More Messages_ -

There are times I get the impression that what Michael does during half of these sessions is remind us of things we've forgotten.

That is all we ever do. /294

| Thanks for the soapbox,
|
| Peace,
| jen

We all like to jump on it from time to time!

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/4.5=26/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:53:42 -0800
Subject: Prior post clarification

In early August I said in a post -

infinite souls manifest only through Kings while transcendental
souls manifest only through Priests.

I just finished a quick trip through _Michael's People_ trying to find a particular piece of information, and stumbled on this -

Just a further clarification...

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/4.5=26/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / rwh@wco.com / Mountain View, California.

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:00:15 +0800
From: J J Tan
Subject: Re: re: Linda & Mixchel NEW BREW

Pati wrote on 19/11/97 4:08 pm:

> Glad to have Chile and Canada represented - We have others in Canada too, I
> believe - but not certain who. ALL are welcome!

And one from the other side of the globe -- Singapore. :-)

Regards.

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:52:24 +0200
From:
Subject: Re: re: Linda & Mixchel NEW BREW -Reply

J J Tan 20/November/1997 01:13pm

Pati on 19/11/97 4:08 pm:

> Glad to have Chile and Canada represented - We have others in
> Canada too, I believe - but not certain who. ALL are welcome!

And one from the other side of the globe -- Singapore. :-)

Regards.

And one from halfway to the other side of the globe too  :-)

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 97 16:03:36 UT
Subject: RE: 7th olds/multi-frags

John Clark stated:

"This is my first day on the mailings list. I tried to lurk, but I just couldn't do it."

LOL!!!!! Thanks for the chuckles. And WE are sooooo glad that you couldn't because the more who join the discussion, the fuller and richer it all becomes for the whole. I've noticed that some of the topics are getting very robust and I truly LOVE all the comments and opinions. Sure makes us very comfortable speaking our mind and hopefully get clarification on information or at the least....know that others might be or are just as confused as we, about this game.. <s> Welcome to the list and glad you could join the rest of us!!! We Sages (who can't spell or write) love to read others communications.

Hugs (cause ya never ever get to many)
Diane

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:18:02 +0800
From: J J Tan
Subject: Re: Manifesting Essence

At 06:58 PM 11/19/97 -0000, John Rogers wrote:

> My e-mail runneth over!
>
> My head spinneth wildly!
>
> Whew! Thanks to everyone contributing to the current threads.
>
> Excuse me while I change the subject for a moment.
>
> In _Messages_from_Michael_ , chapter 12, Michael briefly touches on
> manifesting essence. Quote follows:
>
> THERE IS A PERIOD, AROUND AGE THIRTY-FIVE, WHEN BREAKTHROUGH MAY
> OCCUR AND THE ESSENCE MANIFESTS... IF YOU DO NOT MANIFEST AT THIS
> STAGE, IT IS UNLIKELY THAT YOU WILL LATER.
>
> Of course, what they are speaking of is the fourth monad.
> Numerologically, this correlates with the second life opportunity and
> life obstacle.
>
> I am fast approaching this juncture, and quite frankly, don't want to
> miss the boat. I have known this for some time, but reading that
> statement from Michael really drove it home.
>
> I am looking for a couple of things, if anyone would care to assist
> me here. 1) Can anyone share personal or second-hand observational
> testimony on how best to facilitate this process; 2) Can anyone
> recommend specific passages or sections in any of the Michael books
> that deal with this, or even a cassette that may be available from
> one of the channels; and 3) Can anyone recommend a channel that might
> be especially adept at accessing this particular type of information?
>
> Thank you. And now back to our regularly scheduled program....
>
>
> John

As far as I know (and remember from Michael's material from the various books), there are 2 things that you should know.

(1) That the age 35 is a statistical average. There is no hard and fast rule that you should experience the monad at or around this age. i.e. It can be your conscious choice to experience the monad earlier, or when you're ... so-called "cornered" into experiening it when you were down to "take it or leave it" kind of situation.
(hope I'm making sense here... the way I understand this transitional periods, or monad, is that they are usually more traumatic when the fragment refuse to acknowledge the change, and "circumstances" (pre-planned by Essence?) keep pressing the change to happen.)

(2) That the 4th monad is about dropping imprintment and conditioning that are no longer helpful for manifesting the Essence. I view this process as an on-going process that has no "road-mark" of "you have gone this far, reached this stage", etc. I am not yet 35, and thought I had already reached (and passed) the 4th monad. Until recently some (quite a few) helpful souls in the Internet poked me at the "right" places. (or shall we say, "pushed the right button") And then I got to see quite a few of the things I have been avoiding to see. Or a few skeletons that I had hidden too well. It's the process of "clearing up" again.

Someone noted (on another mailing list, I think... sorry, there are just too many emails right now <g>) about clarity, that clarity sometimes makes a fool of ourselves. Don Juan, according to Carlos Castaneda, noted the 4 "enemies" of a warrior as, first, fear, and second, clarity. I can't remember the 3rd one (someone help me here?) and the 4th one is "old age". I don't think Don Juan was referring to "spiritual growth" as he had been claiming that he was not spiritual at all. But it fits very well here -- fear is the first enemy ... to face our own "skeletons in closets". And clarity, that we think we have seen it all, know it all, and that's when we will make mistakes.

To conclude, I would like to repeat the part about on-going process of clearing out imprintment and conditioning. As long as there is a "button" in you that someone can push, be it a philosophical issue, a moral, or mortal, etc. issue, there is something worth looking into, and perhaps a little cleaning up is in order.

I don't think I have answered your question, but hope this help anyway...

Regards.

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:47:54 +0000
Subject: Re: Things to Remember About the Mid-Life Passage

> Essence is stepping out, leading the way. The urge to manifest the life > task/s becomes quite powerful, even overwhelming, and the worst part is > that you really don't have a flipping clue what that is.

BINGO!!!

We had this discussion on the list a couple of months ago. I started the thread by asking about how one discovers one's life task. The majority of the answers said basically don't worry about it, you don't necessarily have one, or you are placing too much importance on this issue, go play the game.

What brought me to the Michael Teachings in the first place was seeing the information on Lori's web page, and feeling that the teachings would help me understand who I am, why I am here, and what my purpose is.

This issue of my life task, the one big issue or project or whatever I am supposed to be working on, continues to elude me. It has always been a concern for me, but over the past year this has escalated to near frenzy. I absolutely know that there is something I need to be doing, but am not. And I don't have a clue what that is. It is really beginning to bother me.

I guess on a subliminal level I do fear change somewhat, but overtly I strongly desire for this change to happen. My fear to continue manifesting Maya is much greater than my fear of missing the prime opportunity to manifest essence. I WANT THIS TO HAPPEN!

Thank you for your words of encouragement, Gloria. I know I will get through this, but that really isn't my primary concern. You have validated what I already knew, but wouldn't acknowledge for myself. I also just had a flash, as I type this, of what I need to do.

Just ask for help.

How much simpler can you get?

Sheesh! I'm going to go do that right now.

Thanks again, Gloria. Your response was the catalyst I needed. Michael would certainly say that is good work.

John

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:50:24 +0800
From: J J Tan
Subject: Re: To Jen re time and soul ages

At 07:27 PM 11/19/97 -0000, Ed wrote:

> very hard for children to be adults. As one final aside, when we consider
> someone is manifesting X soul age, it is just a judgment based on our own
> culture, values, prejudices and ideas of what people are about, which differ
> a lot.
>
> All the best, Ed

Hello Ed, I would just like to comment that... well, coupling with the other recent posting about "suspending judgement is already a great step taken", you "final aside" above sorta hit me like a hammer. :-)

I used to be exactly as you described above. Until recently I have the curious observation on myself, that I find various people around me, who were formerly distasteful or just disagreeing, are now somewhat attractive and lovely. :-) I don't think I was deceiving myself when I discover this because I was rather shocked, too... :-) Yes, culture, personal history, imprintments, etc. All these are affecting our perceptions of our "outside world" and of others around us. Sometimes, it just take a simple thought of "open up, relax", and a wave of perception would flood in. Together with it, a feeling of appreciation, acknowledgement, and insight...

It feels like magic. :-)

Regards.

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:06:43 +0000
Subject: Re: Manifesting Essence

> As far as I know (and remember from Michael's material from the various
> books), there are 2 things that you should know.
>
> (1) That the age 35 is a statistical average.

I understand that. Of course, not everyone will experience this event at exactly the same age, though I feel that a larger percentage than you indicate do hit the window during that time.

> (2) That the 4th monad is about dropping imprintment and conditioning that
> are no longer helpful for manifesting the Essence. I view this process as
> an on-going process that has no "road-mark" of "you have gone this far,
> reached this stage", etc.

Again, I agree to a point. It is an ongoing process, but I attribute more significance to the crossover from the third to the fourth than you seem to.

> I am not yet 35, and thought I had already
> reached (and passed) the 4th monad. Until recently some (quite a few)
> helpful souls in the Internet poked me at the "right" places. (or shall we
> say, "pushed the right button") And then I got to see quite a few of the
> things I have been avoiding to see. Or a few skeletons that I had hidden
> too well. It's the process of "clearing up" again.

Yes, what you describe here is an ongoing process, and if you are open to it can be quite beneficial. Congratulations on recognizing those skeletons for what they are!

> Someone noted (on another mailing list, I think... sorry, there are just
> too many emails right now > a fool of ourselves. Don Juan, according to Carlos Castaneda, noted the 4
> "enemies" of a warrior as, first, fear, and second, clarity. I can't
> remember the 3rd one (someone help me here?) and the 4th one is "old age".
> I don't think Don Juan was referring to "spiritual growth" as he had been
> claiming that he was not spiritual at all.

Hmm. Do you recall which book this was in, and where. I would like to go back and read that section. What do you think about what's going on with Castaneda and the Tensegrity stuff? There is some heavy controversy around what he is doing, and the camps have definately divided.

> I don't think I have answered your question, but hope this help anyway...

This is not exactly what I was looking for, but any information is helpful. Thank you for taking the time to respond, and never hesitate to do so. This is an open forum. Speak your mind < or should I say essence? >

John

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 01:32:30 +0800
From: J J Tan
Subject: Re: Old soul disease

Hello Ed,

      I can't help but feeling at little warming laughter at your post... :-)

At 07:43 PM 11/19/97 -0000, Ed wrote:

> Dear Aquila -- Good post, and I think it's almost universal in our culture
> for old souls to have feelings like yours in the long hard years before you
> discover the good stuff.
>
> For me the most satisfying use of the Michael teachings has been the perhaps
> 50 or so times I've explained soul ages to an old soul and seen such a
> dramatic lightening up as the huge weight of all the societal putdown blows off.

By gosh it was that dramatic lightening up for me. :-) To my ego, it was such as soothing feel that I was "not weird" afterall...

> I think/feel it would be really good if in thinking about old souls and
> dealing with them, we would focus less on the rather judgmental slant of some
> of the material in the books -- we're lazy, depressed most of the time,
> inclined to be bums, etc., not much purpose for living except to be lazy --

haha... yeah, I have such a hard time explaining _that_ to my... mom and wife... (sorry, don't mean to be sexist, or judgemental, but that was exactly what I had to do... explain to my mom, and then wife... I don't know about the role/soul-age of my mother, but my wife was channeled to be 6/7th level Mature Warrior, that explained that bit about discipline part... and I suspect my mother to be a Mature Warrior, too)

(I believe I am a Sage with Artisan twin, but not very sure... wait until I got a more personal session with a channeler .... )

> and focus on the positive, that our lives have just as much intrinsic
> purpose as younger soul lives, that our essence has definite things in mind,
> and that we are in some way (generally fitting no particular mold) wise
> people or teachers. Old soul lifetimes are about developing the 5th chakra
> communication aspects of our being.
>
> All the best, Ed

LOL!! I don't know if you were speaking in general, but to a Sage Role (me), communication seems to be very paramount (even before I heard of Michael's Teachings, I have been preferring more specific, articularted, means of communication). :-) But I think you're right. Old Souls, with preference to teach a few other people, would prefer a more specific and clear means of communication, if only to avoid miscommunication.

Best Regards!

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:32:55 -0600 (CST)
From: John C
Subject: 7 olds and idealist

The issue of 7th level old souls has belatedly allowed this question to rise up in me.

    "Would a 7th old ready to cyle off choose the idealist overleaf?"

    It seems I've heard that to cycle off we have to be in unconditional acceptance of everything. That doesn't sem likely from a person who has chosen the "should" overleaf. Even in the postive pole that desire would be there. Add to that, that, as an older soul the fragment will be looking at the big picture, ie wanting to save the world. That's a lot of ideaism.

    For me this isn't just academic speculation. I'm 4th old with idealist and acceptance. I want to save the world, and, so far, nothing less than that has been satisfying.
    I want to save it even though I know it's impossible. And I also know it's not right to want to save it because the world is perfection.
    I'm very mad at God/Tao for allowing me to set up a life of unconquerable frustration that leads to anger. They say expectations lead to anger (of course), but this expectation seems to be part of the hardware.
    Even if you accept the paradox that the world is perfect and can still be improved it doesn't take away that maddening impulse that the world "should" be better.
    Sure, this pushes the acceptance goal. That's great for essence growth, but my personality wants some peace and serenity. I know I sound whiney, but this is exhausting me. I haven't stopped looking for the answer though.
    So how do these older souls handle it?
    (It's possible that some of the 7th old souls we've seen listed were not anticipating cycling off in the lifetime they are famous for, and thus chose more activist lives.)

    And hey, what is this about me having to teach everything I know before I leave? That could take hours.

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 05:47:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Things to Remember About the Mid-Life Passage

In a message dated 97-11-20 23:14:09 EST, John Rogers writes:

<< We had this discussion on the list a couple of months ago. I started
the thread by asking about how one discovers one's life task. The
majority of the answers said basically don't worry about it, you
don't necessarily have one, or you are placing too much importance on
this issue, go play the game.

What brought me to the Michael Teachings in the first place was
seeing the information on Lori's web page, and feeling that the
teachings would help me understand who I am, why I am here, and what
my purpose is. >>

John

I believe the intention behind some of those innocuous comments was to help you avoid the very thing you have been doing -- succumbing to fatiguing bouts of neuron misfire. You must understand that the harder you push for an answer, the more probable you will find yourself trapped in a mental riptide that derives its propensity to drown you on the intensity in which you try to fight its current.
So think of your essence as your lifeguard, so to speak, but realize that it can only save you from drowning if you stop kicking and screaming, and allow yourself to go with the flow; gracefully riding the crest of the waves to the shore.

In all probabilities, the inner answers you are seeking will not resonate in your cranium with bold declamatory statements, but will silently arrive on little cats' feet; softly padded messages that you will only hear if you can somehow manage to silence those crashing waves of mental interrogation that relentlessly hold you hostage. I can make these observations, John, because I completely empathize with your plight. I have been battling the changes that accompany the fourth internal monad for almost two years now. Even though my beleaguered body bears the grievous scars of battle, I have finally found some inner peace, despite the territory I lost. I believe this peace comes when you stop fighting your circumstances and just quietly embrace the answers that had always been there if you had only patiently listened for them. Quiet your mind and your essence will speak.

Dave

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:32:10 +0100
Subject: Re: Things to Remember About the Mid-Life Passage

Dave wrote:

> You must understand that the harder you push for an
> answer, the more probable you will find yourself trapped in a mental riptide
> that derives its propensity to drown you on the intensity in which you try
> to fight its current.

(... a lot of good stuff clipped...)

> I believe this peace comes when you stop fighting your circumstances and
> just quietly embrace the answers that had always been there if you had only
> patiently listened for them. Quiet your mind and your essence will speak.
>
> Dave

Well said! I even loved the extavagant metaphors, and your point is very well taken.

Katherine Doversberger

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:00:18 +0800
From: J J Tan
Subject: Re: Manifesting Essence

At 06:03 PM 11/20/97 -0000, you wrote:

> > As far as I know (and remember from Michael's material from the various
> > books), there are 2 things that you should know.
> >
> > (1) That the age 35 is a statistical average.
>
> I understand that. Of course, not everyone will experience this
> event at exactly the same age, though I feel that a larger percentage
> than you indicate do hit the window during that time.

Well, I only meant to indicate that we have our own "timing", and choices, and perceivable choices (or choices that we are aware of). I would prefer to make a decision of going through the process now (now that I know of the process), rather than waiting for my Essence to hit my head with a hammer (or whatever). :-) This is not to say that I rather have control. To me, "to have control" is also part of the illusion of the physical plane. I only prefer to go through the process fully aware of it, and making a conscious decision on going through it.

> Again, I agree to a point. It is an ongoing process, but I attribute
> more significance to the crossover from the third to the fourth than
> you seem to.

I see it as depending on dividuals. Being an Old Soul, I would say that much traumatic transitions were probably experienced before in previous lives. This is more like "retiring time", the excitements and dramas are mostly done with.

> Yes, what you describe here is an ongoing process, and if you are
> open to it can be quite beneficial. Congratulations on recognizing
> those skeletons for what they are!

Thank you for your good wish! :-)

> > Someone noted (on another mailing list, I think... sorry, there are just
> > too many emails right now > > a fool of ourselves. Don Juan, according to Carlos Castaneda, noted the 4
> > "enemies" of a warrior as, first, fear, and second, clarity. I can't
> > remember the 3rd one (someone help me here?) and the 4th one is "old age".
> > I don't think Don Juan was referring to "spiritual growth" as he had been
> > claiming that he was not spiritual at all.
>
> Hmm. Do you recall which book this was in, and where. I would like
> to go back and read that section. What do you think about what's
> going on with Castaneda and the Tensegrity stuff? There is some
> heavy controversy around what he is doing, and the camps have
> definately divided.

Sorry I don't remember which book it was from. I only remember in one interview that Castaneda is now facing the "4th enemy", the old age. I think he is physically around 50 to 60 years old, but according to other people who met him personally, he has the energy of a teenager, with alertness and agility. "Old age", to him, should be with regard to something that I can't quite put in words -- alertness? intent? focus? (I don't think I fully understand it, either.)

As for Tensegrity, I did not have the opportunity to attend any of the workshops so far, though I have started on those 3 videos available. I am still waiting for the book on Tensegrity to be released. As a "tentative practitioner" (with only the videos to work on), I can only relate my experience with Tensegrity. I have been doing it on a rather regular basis (almost daily). The result, so far, is that I feel more energetic at some levels. Sometimes I have problem sleeping at night, or sleep very lightly, easily waking up at night. Some of the dreams are more vivid, to the extend of having lucid dreams on rare occasions. I also find it easier to focus attention, to concentrate. I would say doing Tensegrity has been helpful. (also helpful in slowing/stopping internal dialogue)

Back to "clearing up imprintment/conditionings", I would highly recommend the process described by Castaneda as "recapitulation". It seems to have additional "cleaning up" effects as described by Michael (in the book "Michael for the Millenium"? what's that title?) regarding "severing the cords". Not that I'm doing it at the moment. :-) Somehow I just don't have the discipline (or patience?) to stay put for this recapitulation.

> > I don't think I have answered your question, but hope this help anyway...
>
> This is not exactly what I was looking for, but any information is
> helpful. Thank you for taking the time to respond, and never
> hesitate to do so. This is an open forum. Speak your mind <or
> should I say essence?>

No it is not "speak your essence". :-) I believe that when we meet our own Essence, especially when we're still alive (as in lucid dream/out-of-body state), we will still feel a sense of separation. The paradox is well-described by Robert Monroe as "I-here", and "I-There". This terminology, however, is just what I heard mentioned (quoted) by others. I have yet to read anything by Monroe. :-)

My apology to other list members for this apparently off-topic email. :-) First Castaneda, and then Robert Monroe. I'll try to stick to the topic of this list. :-)

Best Regards.

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:54:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: re:Things to remember about Mid-life passage

(((((((Dave))))))) ! Hi !

Well written post and RIGHT ON THE MONEY!

This is EXACTLY how it worked for me - At the time the popular phrase was "Let go and Let God! Well - there is is - "relax and ride the wave" does it too!

Truly insightful! Well done!

LOVE * LIGHT * PEACE * JOY JOY JOY !!!! <3 Pati* ;-)

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:31:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 7 olds and idealist

Dear J Clark -- You might want to look at the discussion in The Michael Handbook by Stevens on attitudes and Idealist. The characteristics that are bothering you are the negative pole attributes -- identifying excessively with what's wrong and needs to be changed rather than being in the positive where you are, from love, doing something about it. Here's a quote:

Positive Pole
    Coalescence; combines the best of all possibilities, pushes for improvement, brings all parts together; practical.

    The idealist can perform a great service when in the positive pole by pulling together all the necessary ingredients to make a situation work in the best possible manner. Idealists pull things forward to a new and improved state by virtue of their vision and far-reaching ideas. They are able to visualize and then produce new improved products, buildings, organizational structures, and better societies. [end of quote.]

So, as with all overleaves, seek to distinguish the positive and negative poles and be as much as you can in the positive. This holds regardless of soul ages and levels.

Another idea that may help for idealist and politically-oriented people is that you don't have to carry all the burdens of changing the world yourself. You have plenty of help. The grand process will go on just fine if you step off and take a break which you might very well really need. Part of the positive idealist practical pulling together of things is that you have to take care of yourself and not get into martyrdom for your cause.

The older an old soul gets the more fluid and flexible is his/her ability to use any of the overleaves as circumstances warrant. There is nothing mechanistic whereby if you choose XYZ "default" overleaves your life inevitably plays out in certain ways.

Now the people who have Idealist and Acceptance can speak up...I don't.

All the best, Ed

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:08:47 +0000
Subject: Essence, recapitulation, and silencing the internal dialogue

> Back to "clearing up imprintment/conditionings", I would highly recommend
> the process described by Castaneda as "recapitulation". It seems to have
> additional "cleaning up" effects as described by Michael (in the book
> "Michael for the Millenium"? what's that title?) regarding "severing the
> cords". Not that I'm doing it at the moment. :-) Somehow I just don't
> have the discipline (or patience?) to stay put for this recapitulation.

Recapitulation requires you to devote very large blocks of time to be spent in complete solitude. Recapitulation at this time would require me to turn my back to obligations I have made to my family. I am not denying that recapitulation is important or even valid, because I feel it is both, and possibly even of critical importance, but I will not undertake this monumental task until later in life. _The Teachings of Don Carlos_ by Victor Sanchez has some good information on this exercise, and is a wealth of information on putting the teachings of don Juan Matus as transcribed by Carlos Castaneda to practical use.

For those on the list struggling as I do with stopping the incessant chatter in your head, there is some valuable information in the aforementioned book on this subject.

> No it is not "speak your essence". :-) I believe that when we meet our
> own Essence, especially when we're still alive (as in lucid
> dream/out-of-body state), we will still feel a sense of separation. The
> paradox is well-described by Robert Monroe as "I-here", and "I-There".
> This terminology, however, is just what I heard mentioned (quoted) by
> others. I have yet to read anything by Monroe. :-)

Manifesting essence is exactly that... manifesting essence. The opposite of wallowing in maya. The off-handed point I was trying to make was that speaking your mind and speaking your essence would also be at those opposite poles. I am not talking about meeting your "higher self" (or whatever you care to call it) in a meditation, lucid dream, or OOBE. Manifesting essence is not about separateness, it is about wholeness.

> My apology to other list members for this apparently off-topic email. :-)
> First Castaneda, and then Robert Monroe. I'll try to stick to the topic of
> this list. :-)

Michael is about dealing with the particular issues of being in a physical body working your way back to the Tao. I don't feel we have deviated from that, and it shouldn't be an issue if we don't stray too far off on a tangent. I am sure there are others here who have dabbled in Castaneda and Monroe and may have something to add as to the validity (or lack of validity) of their teachings. And since we mentioned Monroe, I am curious about what Michael might have to say about the places Monroe was visiting in his OOBEs.

John

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:08:47 +0000
Subject: Re: Things to Remember About the Mid-Life Passage

> Quiet your mind and your essence will speak.

That simple statement speaks volumes.

Thanks, Dave, and welcome back. We missed you.

John

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:27:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: Things to Remember About the Mid-Life Passage

Dear John -- I don't have any idea what your life task is, but I felt the urge to say this. You may have some preconceived ideas about the limits or rules of the format, so to speak, based on reading about what Michael said various other people's life tasks were. They are not necessarily simple to put in words. Often it takes a page or two of transcript to elaborate. Often there are several different parts only vaguely connected by a unifying theme. They are unique.

As an analogy, you might sit down and contemplate what you would really like to do in the next year (or some such time). It might be one concentrated focus, or two or more. It might be rest and relaxation, or study, or inner exploration, or various work in the world, or time spent in the processes of relations with particular people, which might be called agreements or karmas; or any of these or many others. Before you incarnate, as essence you have a similar contemplation of what you'd like to do with the life.

The best way to figure it out is to assess, from energy and feelings, what directions of activity or connections with people (and all the other possibilities as in the paragraph above) give you a feeling of greater interest, excitement, animation, maybe "warm fuzzies" in the chest. What aligns with your essence's purpose will feel good and energizing in that way, and what doesn't won't. If you hook on to something that leads in the right direction, you'll feel a real pull to it that you can't easily turn off. It is good work to learn to assess in this way.

You might feel your life is uncomfortable and confining but that there are a lot of reasons why you have to persevere through that, and a life task could certainly include mastering or making go right or making the best possible outcome of a complex life scenario. This is quite common, as people often reincarnate with an agenda of replaying a scenario which in a past life they may have screwed up, this time to get it right; sometimes also they reverse the roles as in monad agreements. I would say that in such a case the person would feel, in assessing, that he/she wants to (not just "should") go on through the scenario as opposed to walking away from it.

In any case, experiment with assessing energies of things and incorporate as much as you can the elements which have the most positive energy in that way. Soon you become quite good at this and it becomes easy to let go of the things with no energy.

All the best, Ed

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:33:35 -0800
Subject: Re: 4th Monad and Life Task

Think of the 4th monad as the "mid life crisis" and maybe it will make some sense. I think mine took about 10 years and seemed to go on and on and on....like the bunny's battery.

As I understand it, we cannot work on our life task until we've completed the 4th monad, gotten rid of our imprinted "stuff" (which can take decades by itself), finished most of our karma, done some real work on getting our dragons disciplined and found the people who are our travelling companions for the task (ie., support circle or task companion-types).

Part of the reason we can't work on the life task until then is because we're too busy doing all that other stuff and life task work takes a great deal of energy. In fact, when we're doing it, we seem to be transported into another realm where "our work" becomes fun and time flies by without even missing it.

When we're a little younger, we push forward, constantly pushing for that place when we can be who we are. As we get older and look back, we wish we hadn't wasted some of that youthful energy by not being just where we were at the time and appreciating it.

by the way, Hi John Clark...nice to see you here :)
-- Barbara Taylor

"The past cannot be changed, but the future is whatever you want it to be"

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:44:37 +0000
Subject: Re: 4th Monad and Life Task

> As I understand it, we cannot work on our life task until we've
> completed the 4th monad, gotten rid of our imprinted "stuff" (which can
> take decades by itself), finished most of our karma, done some real work
> on getting our dragons disciplined and found the people who are our
> travelling companions for the task (ie., support circle or task
> companion-types).

That may explain the dream I had last night I feel was about my quadrate, but haven't quite figured out yet.

> Part of the reason we can't work on the life task until then is because
> we're too busy doing all that other stuff and life task work takes a
> great deal of energy. In fact, when we're doing it, we seem to be
> transported into another realm where "our work" becomes fun and time
> flies by without even missing it.

Seems to me that would be somewhat of a perpetual motion machine rather than an energy depleter.

> When we're a little younger, we push forward, constantly pushing for
> that place when we can be who we are. As we get older and look back, we
> wish we hadn't wasted some of that youthful energy by not being just
> where we were at the time and appreciating it.

Thanks for adding your perspective as one who has been through the fire. I have some contemplating to do.

John

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:03:54 -0500
Subject: Re: 7th level old souls

Barbara Taylor wrote:

> For general information, there are 20 people in my famous folks
> database designated 7th level old souls. These come from a variety of
> sources and seem to make sense for the ones I know a little bit about.
>
> They are: Meher Baba, B Boutros-Ghali, Ram Dass, Siddhartha Gautama
> (before the Buddha came in), Thich Nhat Hanh, Joseph (Jesus's father),
> The man Jesus (before the Infinite soul/Christ came in), Maharishi,
> Nelson Mandela, Mother Mary (Jesus's mother), Don Juan Matus,
> Michelangelo, Muktananda, Swami Nityananda, Rama (Indian Avatar),
> Anwar Sadat, Swami Satchidananda, Patrick Stewart, Zen Master Suzuki,
> Emanual Swedenborg.

Barbara, I enjoyed your post. You made a lot of points. Your examples are fascinating, but the "problem" with this particular list as an "example" of 7th level OS is that it feeds more, IMHO, into the traditional views of Eastern Religions (such as Hinduism and Buddhism) on the subject of reincarnation, which is qualitiatively different from Michael's teachings--and which is what I *love* about Michael. To wit: in the traditional view, when you are finally, after literally millions of lifetimes (how many depends on if you buy into the view of transmigration, that many of your lives are as animals), ready to "cycle off" the planet, it is only when you have reached "nirvana" or "enlightenment," or what Maharaishi calls "cosmic" or "god consciousness." In Michael's view, we aren't here millions of lifetimes in a cycle, rather only hundreds. And our goal isn't necessarily, by our first or even our third or fourth cycle, to manage to achieve the blissed out state of "enlightenment." In this view, it is perfectly possible to be completely "dysfunctional" (by young soul standards, especially) and still be 7th level.

Another issue I have with using famous people such as your list above as illustrative examples of what 7th level "looks like" is that most all of these other than Patrick Stewart (is that "Captain Picard from Star Trek??) are major movers-and-shakers (i.e. transformers of the planet, most of them in a spiritual context). That is, they each chose to have a *huge* territory of teaching influence. This is *very*, very unusual, from my take on Michael's teachings, for OSs in general. Our mandate is to teach one or two people a lifetime, not the teeming masses.

It's my understanding via the Michael teachings that in societies like ours, which are YS, and esp. if in a Baby Soul society--where the distance between the OS's consciousness/experience and that of the society as a whole is almost too huge to bridge--it can be *very* common for 7th level Olds to be "bums" aka street people, at the least, even when, in the OS's *own* eyes, they are functioning well and "normally," at best they come off as extremely eccentric, even downright weird to the YS's and BS's. Matures can somewhat accept us, but even for them it is a stretch. For this reason, Olds tend to be loners or gravitate to little pockets of other Olds, in my experience.

For example, in Columbia, Missouri where I spent many years of my life, there is a little pocket of highly eccentric (and extremely "dysfunctional by BS, YS and even MS standards) group of OS's who were hippies in the 60s and for many years have been the core of the "new age community" there. Many of them have (for you astro afficionados) major "Neptune" problems and have never given up drugs. It is rather sad hearing them still using the rhetoric of the 60's about drugs being the "window to the spiritual realms."

I have spent this entire lifetime almost exclusively around OS's (a strong karmic desire, I have come to believe), and I have found they are very common in California and the NW and portions of the SW, esp. Arizona (Sedona, etc.) in this country, and throughout the rest of the country you will find little pockets of them, as in Columbia, MO. Most major cities now have a new age community.

At this current time, a lot of OSs are choosing a karma of fame, in the arts, esp., and I think that's because we OS's have got a karmic "mandate" from the universe to, whether we want to or not, help as spiritual midwives as the planet moves from young to mature. And, btw, in my perception, OS's will appear less and less "weird" as the planet as a whole matures. :)

In my perception, right now it is the Baby and Infant Souls who are having the hardest time surviving the change. As OS's, things are finally, gradually, starting to shift in our direction.

For what it's worth, Gloria, I asked Michael what you are and they confirmed for me that you are 7th level Old. I think being an OS is a mixed blessing, like being a highly creative person is. In this culture, OS's and artists (and many, many OS's choose also to be artists) are *not* appreciated. So the concept of a "contest" and feeling "superior" about being an OS, in my perception, is a joke. I have rarely, rarely met an OS, esp. late OS, and I have met dozens and dozens, who aren't suffering from low self esteem (alternating with painful grandiosity), depression, and who have gone in and out of "self-medicating" themselves with recreational drugs, food and sex to help with the existential pain of being too totally weird to fit in. The people who seem to have adjusted the best are those lucky enough (or who made the karmic choice of it) to be born to OS's (though that's a mixed blessing, because, as I say, OS's tend to be highly dysfunctional and frequently make *terrible* parents since parenting forces you to relate, constantly and intimately with an alienating, disempowering YS culture in a way that can tear you apart).

Kate, throwing in her two-cents worth (and it might not even be worth a penny <G>)

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:44:37 +0000
Subject: Re: Re: Things to Remember About the Mid-Life Passage

> Dear John -- I don't have any idea what your life task is, but I felt the
> urge to say this. You may have some preconceived ideas about the limits or
> rules of the format, so to speak, based on reading about what Michael said
> various other people's life tasks were. They are not necessarily simple to
> put in words. Often it takes a page or two of transcript to elaborate.
> Often there are several different parts only vaguely connected by a unifying
> theme. They are unique.

Actually, I hadn't really looked much at others readings, and don't have much of a preconception of a format. And I do feel I need to consult Michael through a channel on this issue, which is why I asked for a recommendation on a channel that might be especially adept at this particular topic. As of this moment, Kay Kamala wins by default.

> If you hook on to something that leads in the
> direction, you'll feel a real pull to it that you can't easily turn off. It
> is good work to learn to assess in this way.

Thanks, I will try that.

> In any case, experiment with assessing energies of things and incorporate as
> much as you can the elements which have the most positive energy in that way.
> Soon you become quite good at this and it becomes easy to let go of the
> things with no energy.

Thanks, Ed. I will work with this.

John

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:38:33 -0800
Subject: Re: To Jen re time and soul ages (1997-46/37)

A truly excellent post, IMO. I'll make a few comments.

| From: Ed
| Subject: To Jen re time and soul ages
| Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:30:32 -0500 (EST)
|
| Dear Jen -- I would add a few thoughts that might simplify ideas a little.
|
| First, we have lots of confusion happen because time differs in the
| different planes. I'm not going to get into all that, since I'd
| embarrass myself, probably! But: numerous sources as well as Michael
| have said that time as we know it (we can observe it by motions of
| physical bodies in the heavens or clocks) exists only in the physical
| plane. It is said that we really need time here because there is so
| much to do and experience and there needs to be a way to spread it out
| so it doesn't all happen at once! And so that we can use
| before-and-after-ness quantitatively (how long ago?) to spread out our
| creations of past and future. This is all an agreed-upon part of
| physical plane life that makes it such a fine game.

Another reason is so that the aging process can occur. This is from _Michael's People_ -

It is the nature of the physical plane to evolve through physical means, which requires a passage of time for what you call aging. All fragments extant on the physical plane any and everywhere in the physical universe experience some sort of aging, which is part of the nature of the physical plane itself. /68

| Michael describes our lives as being in a sequence, as I mentioned.
| Life #217 follows #216 and is in ways a reaction to or result of what
| happened in #216. The vast majority of the time, (I believe I heard it
| was in the 95% or so range), succeeding lives move along in time
| parallel with the larger society and cultures we're affiliated with.
| That is, your next life will follow rather than precede this one in
| physical time. In general this is the pattern because the other souls
| we are having dealings with are growing in parallel with us, and if we
| want to come back next time in some continuity with our experience this
| time, the river flows only one way.

Makes sense.

| However an essence can just as well, if it wants to, incarnate back in
| time. Life #216 could be now and #217 in 1500 or in Atlantis. It
| wouldn't normally be the case for an essence to go so far back without a
| clear reason for doing so.
|
| Suppose #217 is in 1500. We have the intrinsic ability to "remember"
| future lives just as well as past lives, where that refers to physical
| time. (I am not sure whether we have such an ability to remember or to
| know the future when that refers to future in the sequence of
| lifetimes.)

I would seriously doubt it.

| #217 in 1500 has a much harder time remembering 1997 than vice versa
| because our 1997 reality is so alien to 1500. We have history of the
| past to refer to but they can't even conceive of much of our present
| reality.

At a channel session I learned I lived a life in 2010 after one in the 1800's; apparently I didn't like it very much due to the rather extreme change in reality. It was #70 and this personality is #150. What I would like is a list of all lives by number, with their corresponding chronological dates; I think it would be quite interesting.

| It seems to me that Nostradamus and other past prophets may have been
| especially strong examples of the case where someone living through an
| Armageddon, end of the world, crash and burn scenario goes back into the
| past to warn people so they can change their ways and have a better
| outcome. It would seem that to be such a prophet one would have to be
| quite an old soul with a clear understanding of things and confident in
| one's ability to carry back the 1997 memories to 1500 (or whatever the
| case may be) clearly enough to be able to do the job well.

This was also asked about at a prior channel session. This is from my notes -

Michael mentioned that Nostradamus was able to predict the future because he had lived it, in a prior life. They also said that the reason Nostradamus's predictions stop abruptly is not because the world ends, but because Nostradamus's life in the future ended then.

I also recall something to the effect that some of the dire predictions floating around are from those who have lived those scenarios in future lives, on parallels where the events did occur. That implies, of course, that this parallel is not necessarily any of those.

| This all leads into really confusing quantum physics ideas of time and
| parallels which I don't really understand or want to do the work to. It
| seems to be true that extraterrestrials understand and use time travel
| in ways that baffle us, probably because our brain structure or patterns
| are solidly locked into 3D reality because that's what we have always
| needed to do in the past.

I believe this to be true. See _Cosmic Voyage_ by Dr. Courtney Brown.

| So.....the gist of all this in regard to the various soul age postings
| is that there is a certain amount of artisan/scholarish theory
| construction happening. I believe essence (and look in Shepherd's book
| for the distinction between "essence" and "soul", it's good) does
| advance, just as people grow up, slowly; and essence doesn't hop around
| doing different soul ages out of kilter. If someone sees that pattern
| either they are not getting the sequence correctly or there is some
| other error in the computer.

Agreed.

| One last example of this: if "hopping around" were correct and my
| essence for some reason wanted to live in the jungle next lifetime --
| say my essence really is drawn to a certain place in nature and/or
| agreements and karmas and just wants to do it -- my next life could be
| in the jungle but *not* as an infant soul. *Soul age can't reverse.*
| You can and do manifest younger soul ages often, and people easily make
| mistakes in guessing soul ages because the manifested soul age is
| usually lower and more obvious than the true one. It is rare and
| difficult to manifest older than one's true soul age. Shepherd's charts
| had only one such case, where a 6th mature guy manifested 7th and
| Michael went to great lengths to explain the unusualness of this. (The
| person was heavily imprinted by both parents, both spiritual teachers,
| so that in appearance and manner he seemed to be 7th mature.) Certainly
| it would be very hard to manifest a substantially older soul age just as
| it's very hard for children to be adults. As one final aside, when we
| consider someone is manifesting X soul age, it is just a judgment based
| on our own culture, values, prejudices and ideas of what people are
| about, which differ a lot.

Agreed on all points.

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/4.5=26/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:39:58 -0800
Subject: Re: more on 7th level (1997-46/41)

| From: Yvonne McNair
| Subject: Re: more on 7th level
| Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:13:48 -0500 (EST)

| I recently found out my soul age and that of my task partner, who is
| a second level O/S compared to my fifth level mature. Since then I've
| found my attitude had changed toward her, which is ridiculous because
| I've known her for 17 years and know that she, like the rest of us,
| still has a lot to work on. Still I couldn't shake this feeling of
| "reverence" for her because her soul-age is older than my own. She has
| lately been looking at me askance and telling me to lighten up, but
| perhaps because I am also a scholar and have such a love for facts,
| knowledge and teachers, that I hadn't, until reading Barbara's posting,
| been able to shake that foolish "she knows more than I do and deserves
| respect for it" headtrip I was on. Thank you for the psychic jolt.
| I needed it!

A couple of years ago when I started corresponding with people on the Net about the teachings, my first contact turned out to be my TC! She is M/6 while I am M/5, and we carried on a long and varied correspondence. Shortly after "meeting" her, I encountered another woman who said she was an O/6. I guess what I felt toward her was a sort of reverence, and apparently expressed that in my email to her. She let it be known right away that she didn't appreciate that, that we are all here with our individual tasks and other things to experience, and that we are just in different places in our journeys here.

Some time after that I started going to group channel sessions, and found that I was the only Mature in the group; all the others were Old. As I interacted with them through about two years of sessions, I found the main difference between my behavior and theirs was my being more feisty, for lack of a better term. They were generally quieter, more deliberate whereas I would be more likely to challenge something I didn't understand. OSs are just people, like everyone else, with their attendant problems and challenges. While it's true they have "trod more ground" than the rest of us, they still have their challenges and problems. And something else - they have already had many experiences, certainly not all unpleasant, that we can still look forward to.

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/4.5=26/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:40:48 -0800
Subject: Re: 7th olds/multi-frags (1997-46/43)

| From: John Clark
| Subject: Re: 7th olds/multi-frags
| Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:50:27 -0600 (CST)
|
| Just thought I'd add something I heard about older souls - I think the
| latter half of the age - is that once fragments get to that point, the
| regrouping of the entity has already begun.

The regrouping of the Entity takes place as fragments cycle off. While it's probably true that this occurs "late in the game" for the Entity, I am unaware of any direct correlation between regrouping of Entities and the soul ages of those not cycled off.

| In other words, there is more than one fragment walking around in the body.

While it's true that a body can contain the energies of more than one essence, soul age has no direct bearing on that occurrence. See the IMO excellent writeup about this topic on page 151 of Shepherd Hoodwin's _Journey_.

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/4.5=26/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:07:52 +0800
From: J J Tan
Subject: Re: Essence, recapitulation, and silencing the internal dialogue

At 06:04 PM 11/21/97 -0000, John Rogers wrote:

> Recapitulation requires you to devote very large blocks of time to be
> spent in complete solitude. Recapitulation at this time would
> require me to turn my back to obligations I have made to my family.
> I am not denying that recapitulation is important or even valid,
> because I feel it is both, and possibly even of critical importance,
> but I will not undertake this monumental task until later in life.
> _The Teachings of Don Carlos_ by Victor Sanchez has some good
> information on this exercise, and is a wealth of information on
> putting the teachings of don Juan Matus as transcribed by Carlos
> Castaneda to practical use.

Or perhaps you should listen to what Castaneda has to say about recapitulation. You can just about do it anywhere, any time. Granted that it is best to devote a long duration of time for recapitulation, but at any rate, Castaneda and his gangs are said to be on their 3rd or 4th round of recapitulation, and they commented that as long as you have interactions with other people (limited to humans only?) you have to do recap. Hence the reference to "on-going process" I made earlier on.

> For those on the list struggling as I do with stopping the incessant
> chatter in your head, there is some valuable information in the
> aforementioned book on this subject.

I find Tensegrity helps much in terms of slowing down the internal dialogue. After a short session of Tensegrity movements, I find my mind enters into a state of lull that "doesn't seem to know what to think".

> Manifesting essence is exactly that... manifesting essence. The
> opposite of wallowing in maya. The off-handed point I was trying to
> make was that speaking your mind and speaking your essence would
> also be at those opposite poles. I am not talking about meeting your
> "higher self" (or whatever you care to call it) in a meditation,
> lucid dream, or OOBE. Manifesting essence is not about separateness,
> it is about wholeness.

Point taken. :-) I guess I was too "spaced-out" then.

> > My apology to other list members for this apparently off-topic email. :-)
> > First Castaneda, and then Robert Monroe. I'll try to stick to the topic of
> > this list. :-)
>
> Michael is about dealing with the particular issues of being in a
> physical body working your way back to the Tao. I don't feel we have
> deviated from that, and it shouldn't be an issue if we don't stray
> too far off on a tangent. I am sure there are others here who have
> dabbled in Castaneda and Monroe and may have something to add as to
> the validity (or lack of validity) of their teachings. And since we
> mentioned Monroe, I am curious about what Michael might have to say
> about the places Monroe was visiting in his OOBEs.
>
>
> John

Yes it would be nice if some one don't channel what Michael has to say... :-)

Regards.

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:16:53 -0800
Subject: Re: Digest No. 1997-11-21 of Michael Teachings List

I am a 3-5th level old sould Scholar/Artisan who hasn't felt the need to comment until now (and what a surprise with all my Priest overleaves!LOL!).

But I have some thoughts on jclark's questions.....

> From: John Clark
> Subject: 7 olds and idealist
>
> "Would a 7th old ready to cyle off choose the idealist overleaf?"
>
> It seems I've heard that to cycle off we have to be in
> unconditional acceptance of everything. That doesn't sem likely from a
> person who has chosen the "should" overleaf. Even in the postive pole that
> desire would be there. Add to that, that, as an older soul the fragment
> will be looking at the big picture, ie wanting to save the world.

Yes, old souls *generally* think of the better good for mankind, however, it doesn't take many lives to find that one person alone cannot save man. These are lessons often learned by currently famous young and mature souls who take on big karmas and/or agreements to do something BIG for man (such as Clinton and his agreement to help save the environment--which he seems to be blowing). What I'm saying is: one person can't do it all.

I do know an old soul who had to learn that what she took on this time around was just not possible all by herself, and she is feeling the pain of not fulfilling one of the tasks she set forth to do.

> That's a lot of ideaism.

Or is it "spiritulist"? Spiritualists see the world "as it could be" and I've met a few old souls who have the spiritualist overleaf. (Those who are reading this that channel, please feel free to comment on that since you've got the numbers more than I do.)

> I want to save it even though I know it's impossible. And I also know
> it's not right to want to save it because the world is perfection.
> I'm very mad at God/Tao for allowing me to set
> up a life of unconquerable frustration that leads to anger. They say
> expectations lead to anger (of course), but this expectation seems to be
> part of the hardware.

I hope I am not overstepping my boundaries, but might I suggest you consider that MAYBE it's YOU who set up the life this way?

> So how do these older souls handle it?

I change what I can and leave other pieces to more competent people to fix. I'm a teacher, so I think I do this because I can get "the word out" (whatever "the word" is) to as many people in a quick, nice fashion. My ideas, words, etc. are entertained, even if briefly. Some people I have inspired to go on and help others. Others remain miserable and yet others teach me so I can pass those lessons on to someone else. This is my way of helping mankind....

So I'll leave you with this: if mankind was drowning in the ocean and you could only save half, who would you save? (This is a rhetorical question, of course, but you see what I'm saying, right?)

--Karen Croteau

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:08:01 -0800
Subject: first words

Dear Friends,

      Thanks for the access. I've been reading the Michael books since the first one in the early 80's. I come back to them every so often, especially when my life is changing. The threads between this work and the Tao-te-ching are very amusing and insightful.
      I'm very happy to see that this sort of work is prospering. The company of other self-aware self aware souls make the journey alot more fun, and easier to bear in it's difficult moments. I'm happy to be in your company.

        Looking foward, Chris:)

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:42:33 -0800
Subject: re: manifesting essence

Hi,

Just wanted to add my take on the mid-life transition....

The mid-life time seems to be a time of playing it safe and continuing to do things that are uncomfortable and don't really suit you, or listening to your heart and soul and finding some way to respond to those inner urges, hopes, dreams, promptings and create a life that uniquely expresses _you_.

35 to 45 seems to be a time when this issue comes to the fore. However, that's not to say that one can't manifest essence younger and just decide to listen and respond to what is within more than outside pressures, or that having let outer influences dictate a life for longer --that one can't just decide to throw it all over one day and go for what really makes sense within -- even if no one else understands or validates the choice.

Maybe there is some neat and tidy way to move through this time, balancing inner and outer, but my experience brings me again and again to the edge of the unknown, where I create my path as I walk it in each moment. This has brought home the degree to which I am the creator and responsible for what I create in my life. It can also be incredibly uncomfortable at times. I think gradually a trust can grow just by doing it. Finding more peace within the unknown. Knowing that all we need comes from essence and the simple reality of this statement.

All kinds of issues come up during this time.(Dependencies, fears, illusions, concepts of all sorts that stand in the way.) Depending how deeply each honestly faces what seeks their attention, the life shifts and changes accordingly. While we can love and nurture one another during times like this, no one else can do inner work for anyone else, or really answer anyone else's deepest questions. An answer may be given, and then each of us has to work out for ourselves what we believe, how we want to live and what that means to us and what this life is about. Any short cuts at this time only seem to make it longer, unless you decide to dive right into the heart of it and go for what is meaningful to you.

Re John's description of sensing there's something to do, but not knowing what it may be....

I'd say to begin to get clearer, go within and do practices to get quiet inside. (These can be very simple and fit in to your daily life.) As there is more calmness, there will come more knowing. It tends to be more step by step, sort of quiet and simple-- easy things -- that might require some discipline and focus just to _be_ to let the peace and quiet come into the consciousness. We tend to make it all more complicated and difficult than it needs to be. When there's lots of tumult, worry and stress, it can be hard to see the next step that is right in front of us. (Beautiful post on this by Dave.) While there may come some general vision of the whole, it really seems to proceed step by step, taking all of your own unique conditions into consideration at each moment. It's more about releasing all the ways that we block knowing, and block our own flowering than trying to make something happen when we don't know what it is.

Some nice input on this transition from everyone... including the description by Ed of how the energy feels.

Regarding missing the boat....I think this happens when people don't want to deal with what isn't working in their lives. Sometimes the boredom, unhappiness and frustration are so great, people will resort to drinking or drugs to numb the feelings. But the feelings are there precisely to guide to something that better suits. The path may not be and often isn't clear of how this will all come about. It is a matter of committing to what you know inside of yourself, and taking chances toward things that make more sense to you.

After a time, it may be less likely that people will respond to these promptings either because they've decided "this is how it has to be" or whatever they are doing to numb out how they truly think and feel will create it's own patterns and habits in their life. However, one really can decide to listen and change at any time.

I'm sure this experience varies for all of us. But sometimes I think it's just the mask that varies....while essence and our connection to it, remains the same.

Best to John and all,
Brin

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:48:25 -0800
Subject: What happened to Ken Broom

Kenneth Broom wrote:

Hi back atcha, Lori Lady.

 

I am doing just great... now that I have a computer back in my life. Thanks for asking.

My computer totally crashed about a month ago. And I chose to work with Spirit instead of immediately rushing out to get another one. It was a very growthful experience, especially for some one with a CF of impatience.

I learned that I am much more attached to my PC and my computer projects, and to the Michael List than I thought I was. It was a true test of steadiness in keeping some semblance of sanity and physical health, and to maintain my meditation practice during this past month . I also started developing a small case of psoriasis on my ankles. plus my temper got short.

The upshot of this is my recognizing that a computer is actually an integral part of my life path, and that there is no shame or karma for me to be as attached, as I am, to my Knowldge Machine.

What I had was a little 25 MHz 486SX PC with 2 MB of RAM, that I had upgraded over the past 4 years to a 100 MHz 486DX with 20 MB of RAM, 400 MB hard drive, and a 4X CD-ROM.

What I finally bought is a 300 MHz Pentium II with 32 MB of RAM, a 24X CD-ROM, and a 100 MB ZIP Drive, and 4 GB hard drive.

This new system is not the one that I would have picked for myself due an attachment I still had to poverty consciousness. Through a suggestion from a friend of mind I realized that I deserved the best computer for myself (and Essence) that I could find. And that included an upgrade path, which I had given no thought to. The money to pay for this big machine was "offered" to me by one of my clients.

I am presently occupied with transferring files from my old PC which had Windows 3.1 to my new machine that has Windows 95. These two systems| aren't very compatible.

This has been a real lesson for me in being as good as I can to myself, especially regarding patiently staying on my path; and consciously allowing essence/spirit to be active, conscious, and integral parts of my life.

You may forward this to the list if you feel there's enough value in doing so.

See ya later on the list,
Ken Broom

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:36:04 -0500
Subject: Essay on The Soul Ages and War

******LONG POST WARNING*******

I am posting separately, for those of you who want to know what I'm writing in response to, an e-mail of a short article my Old Soul Scholar sister sent me. A brief description of it follows below:

> Here's a well-known liberal scolding other liberals; telling them to
> get real and recognize that there's a "real populist progressive
> movement taking shape," recognize the signs and get on board.

Note that this post is long and it reads like an essay. I'm giving you clear warning of that, so that if you hate to "waste your time" reading long posts, you can easily delete this post before suffering even the slightest pang of boredom. <G>

Another warning on the "tone" of the post: Remember, I'm a Scholar-Priest-Sage, which means, I constantly present information and facts aligned to "preachy principles" and I have a need to broadcast what I'm saying to all comers because it satisfies a fundamental need to "communicate or die." <G>

If you're still with me at this point <G>, note that I am making reference to Michael information throughout this "treatise," so for those of you who, like me, have spent years of this incarnation working as a world-changer and have wanted to see some practical application of Michael information to world politics, this is my first written stab at it. (I talk like this all the time with close friends of mine who are into Michael and can tolerate discussion of social or political events.) I am more than willing to respond to any feedback you want to give me, either supportive of my "stance" or critical of it. :)

"Essay" begins here:

Well, he's certainly a good writer, fluent, clear and persuasive. Since I always want to know the source of any information I am taking in <G>, I asked Michael and get that he's a Mature Priest.

As for the content of the article, speaking as a dyed-in-the-wool liberal of many decades and a poli sci major, it sounds to me like the author is dealing with issues which are same-old, same-old in left-wing politics. It's standard fare, in my experience with them the left wing, for Marxist thought (the far left of liberalism) to always be invoked sooner or later in any discussion instituted by highly educated liberals (which this guy clearly is). Thus, a lot of what the author is raving about is an inability of the left to "live up to" the ideals of Marxism, to wit, allowing the "working class" to be the standard bearers of "the revolution. (BTW, liberals are not only more open about their Marxist leanings in academia, it is considered uncool to be anything but basically Marxist, though it's usually hyphenated, such as "Marxist-Feminist.")

According to Marx, sooner or later, hopefully sooner, the working stiffs are going to be armed and ready to take on the "owners of the means of production." In the past that mean GMC and other factory owners. More and more lately it means "corporate America." We have to grow with the times. <G>

Historically speaking, invariably, intellectuals lead revolutions, never the working class, as Marx insists and has never been proved right on. The author of this article is using the words "poor" and "middle class," but what are the poor in his lexicon? Probably people who can't get jobs at all, and the "middle class" he's delineating are clearly blue-collar and pink-collar workers (he mentiones UPS drivers and waitresses among others). These are people who have jobs that only require a high school diploma, if that. Ergo: the working class.

In my experience, my Michael channelings on the subject and from an understanding gained from studying the subject, the people who start revolutions and perform the kinds of protests the author is describing (and even those he is hoping for but not getting) are inevitably Mature Souls. The leaders, and most of the followers who stick with it, are almost always either Priest Role or some other very strong Priest influence, like Casting, or an Imprint from a parent who was a Mature Soul Priest activist or the like.

I find it fascinating (and often painful) watching Priests castigate other Priests for not being dedicated enough...or too "dumb" to figure out the "right" leverage point to place their overwhelming idealism. It is sad that Priests rarely receive gratitude for all their emoting and world changing. Probably because they have a strong tendency to be holier-than-thou obnoxious all the time, as this guy is. He's trying hard to be "humble" while he pounds the pulpit, but this is virtually impossible for Priests to pull off with any degree of credibility. Afterall, arrogance is a wonderful fuel to keep you going through activities that invariably are going to get you shot at are down-right assassinated. <G>

And speaking of politics, and Priests, I'd like to bring up the current Iraq situation, since it has been heavily on my mind. I get that Saddham is a Baby Soul Priest with Warrior Casting. Hitler was a Baby Soul Priest, too. Again, it's amazing how much both harm and good that Priests can do. The bigger the arena of influence they can garner, the greater the potential for both damage and help to the world's consciousness they offer.

Last week, I was reading in Time magazine about the great concern of the world regarding Saddham's biological warfare arsenal last week. I found myself starting to share in the general paranoia. And, as always when this happens to me, first Old Soul response to the extreme discomfort that kind of fear cases is outrage: "I don't want to be in this realm if this is the kind of bullshit I have to put up with!" I declare to the "uncaring universe." In the spirit of the old saw, "I'm taking my ball and going home," I give out with my own Old Soul version, "I'm going to simply die or disappear if a scenario like biological warfare takes place because I don't do that sort of drama."

But rather than getting into all that rage and resentment, this time I decided to look at the political situation in another way. (I tend to avoid this way of doing things, because I've been so irritated in the past with fellow Old Souls who have made a personal, idealized philosophy of passivity and feel that by christening it "higher consciousness" it makes it OK.)

I decided that I wasn't going to buy into the news media's ongoing intense visualization that We Are All Going to Die. That I wasn't going to just resist it ("What you resist, persists," as the saying goes), but that I was going to actively, assertively, replace it on as high a spiritual level as I could manage to aspire to, with a far more powerful, useful vision.

Instead of buying into the dramas that the Russians are carelessly guarding their plutonium and any terrorist can now build a nuclear bomb, that the Chinese and Russian mafia are compating with the mafias in the U.S. for first prize as Best at Brutality and that outside terrorists are going to start regularly bombing our cities, and that any terrorist with a perfume atomizer can start the late 20th Century equivalent of the Black Plague, I'm going to "see" something else.

As I sat down to meditate on my own visualization, as these things usually go for me, it started out directed by "ego" or "this fragment's current overleaves," and then words and images started to come to me as channelings. First I put a huge beam of white light on the whole Gulf region, esp. Iraq. Then I found myself seeing the biological and chemical warfare as little "X's" on that map and that they poufed away in little mushroom clouds. Then I intuitively got the idea of asking for a huge amount of soothing Mature Soul energy to come into that area of the world in order to soothe the Baby Soul fears and imprint them with more uplifting goals than currently ascribed to.

Aside on this: I believe that as the world consciousness keeps rising toward Mature, that Baby Souls are beginning to feel the kind of pressure-cookerdiscomfort that Infant Souls are feeling now.

I also visualized that the essence of the fragment called Saddham would decide to allow this fragment to leave the planet soon, very soon--before he does a great deal more damage and incurs an increasingly enormous amount of terrible karma for himself and his entity to resolve.

When I mentioned this to my dh, Christopher, he responded, rightly, that getting Saddham out of power would not necessarily solve the problem in Iraq. Someone even worse could come in and take over. That's a good reminder to be complete in this kind of visualization. If you can't think of everything positive needed, and who can?--it's a good idea to ask for a resolution that, for example, "brings growth and knowledge to all through truth, love, understanding and joy." Something that covers all the "love and light" bases, so to speak. <G>

I've decided that this kind of visualization worked really well for me, and I've decided to do some more direct talk to the essence of Saddham and other fragments with large political power and potential for great harm. These should be interesting discussions. It may just be my arrogant Priest casting speaking, but I've always felt that I have the "right" to confront anyone in the universe on what they are up to, even God. <G> (And I've had some great outcomes with the latter, too. <G> When you confront people and Supreme Beings, you learn as much about yourself as them, I've found. <G>)

While doing all this Old Soul visualizing, I have also clearly declared to the universe that I have NO desire to be in the parallel universe that decides on war, famine and pestilence as a way of "raising the world consciousness." I'm just not interested. And I think if I demand it, my "right to choose" these kinds of major oucomes exists for me as a fragment within the logical (and loving) structure and intent of the universe. By this I mean that I don't think that my essence (or my entity or the Tao even) has all the say in what becomes of me as a fragment. I think that even though the "me" that I mostly identify my "self" with is "just" a fragment who is "simply living out a particular set of overleaves," this does NOT mean that I, that fragment, is not a valuable component of my essence's overall "plan of learning." I am coming to *know* more and more that if I, this current, space-time-manifestation-of-my-larger-self, am insistent about demanding some conscious input on the destiny of this "particular set of overleaves," I MUST be given that privilege. As the saying of a famous infinite soul goes, "Knock and the door shall be opened to you; ask and you shall receive." :)

At any rate, the day after I did this visualization (and I am not saying I *caused* this, only that the universe brought my attention to an alternative reality picture very easily and naturally after I changed my POV), the only news I noticed was that the Russians had negotiated an agreement with Saddham that he accepted and which could well ward off an armed conflict.

The next thing that came to my attention was, of all things, a Tom Clancy book-on-tape, Executive Order. I was driving 500 miles from Atlanta to Florida this past Wednesday, and it seemed to be the only book-on-tape at Cracker Barrel that was even remotely worth listening to. <G>

The fascinating synchronicity about this story was that it contained virtually element of the drama I was concerned about in the Gulf.

****Skip this part if you want more this brevity.****

The arch villain of the book is the leader of Iran (does not, of course, have the real leader's name. He has ordered the intensification of secret development of biological warfare and has come up with a plot for regional, and perhaps ultimately, world conquest. This involved infiltrating a "mole" (a spy who lies dormant for many years, waiting for just the right moment to make his move) directly into the guard around the Iraqui leader who has just assasinated him.

As soon as this was accomplished, the Iranian leader massed forces on the border ready to take over Iraq, Kuwait, Saudia Arabia, and from there the whole region and create a new super power in control of the the huge bulk of the world's oil supply. Once in control of that, the leader's theory went, who would dare to bomb them? The Iranian leader also had a deal going with mainland China and India that they would keep the U.S. distracted while they made their move with small, near-war incidents. Afterwards, they would be "very close friends" of the controller of the world's oil resources.

What made the whole game of chess possible (and this apparently happened in a previous book) was that the US had briefly been in a little war with Japan, which we, of course (this is Claney after all <G>) won, and as a result, at the beginning of Executive Order, a deranged Japanese commercial airline pilot, working on his own, did a kamakazi dive with a 747 into the capitol building during some kind of Senate confirmation meeting and took out all the Senate, most of the House, the prez and VP, and all the Supreme Court. Being, I get, a Young Priest-Warrior, Clancy goes in *big* for drama. <G> And, of course, the strongly implied underlying message to the young, and old, Republican Hawks who are his natural audience, and for whom he is one of the most flashy mouthpieces I've yet read, is, "Hey, nothing less than something as totally destructive and unlikely as *that* could make the good ol' US of A vulnerable to such a scenario as I'm about to set forth in this book." <G>

At any rate, the Iraqui leader also has a mole who has worked his way into the president's personal guard and is set up to assasinate him. But the ultimate part of the plan, that fits into my previous fears mentioned above, was that the Iranian leader easily slipped terrorists into the U.S. (Makes you realize that unless you turn your country into an armed camp, the borders of any country are rather porous, and a dedicated die-for-the-cause terrorist can even get into an armed camp. A scary thought to most people.) Once in, the terrorists set off bug-bomb type aerosol cans which sprayed ebola virus in the air at 15 trade conventions around the U.S. and in virtually every military base in the U.S. and Europe. This action started an epidemic. However, the positive note immediately put forth was this: because unlike during the plagues in past history we now know about infectuous disease control, the loss of life was contained down to tens of thousands rather than millions.

I'm going into this much detail, because when I first heard the laying out of Clancy's ebola plot (how the secret labs function, how the virus is spread), I was really a bit freaked, because the plot sounded like a Time or Newsweek worst-case-scenario story written as a "how to" book for terrorists. IOW, it was so *very* plausible, for all I knew, I was thinking in my angst, in some parallel universe, all of this could actually be happening. Fortunately for my own peace of mind, I got an immediate channeled response which quietened a tendency to panic and despair, to wit: "NO, every hawkish plot that a Tom-Clancy-type author comes up with does not automatically become reality in some Bizarro alternate universe where bad Hollywood plots go to play themselves out." :}

But, I replied, even if a terrifying world-level scenario like this doesn't come fully true, this presentation of it (esp. the later movie that's bound to be made of it), is a *very* powerful visualization, just as the Newsweek and Times articles are.

The answer I got to that was that, unlike Newsweek and Times, who simply set up the story's conflict but are never in the business of resolving it (proposing ideas for meaningful, practical solutions or preventions of a horrible potential), the writer of popular fiction sets up a terrible problem and, always, resolves it. Thus, in true Clancy (action-genre) style, the villains in Executive Order were defeated at every turn and ultimately pounded into dust, and the Young Soul warriors in the Oval Office, the spy section of the government and the military unanimously reigned triumphant. <G>

Of course, one might patronizingly declare, this is the kind of simple-minded, male warrior fantasy that our Young-Soul Warrior-Sage culture delights in. It is dumb and meaningless. And I know I've done my share of this kind of thinking. But all of a sudden this week something hit me that never had before. I hadn't realized that in our culture Young Soul right-wing conservatives have a source of hope and power (and triumphantly visualized outcomes) which considerably aids them in avoiding the (often complete) despair that Mature Soul left-wing liberals frequently experience. (And which many of us Old Souls, esp. during our Mature-Soul phases have also frequently experienced.)

Just as we all do, the young soul right-wing intelligentsia and conservative, working-class stiffs hear the terrible predictions of doom the news media blast at us many times daily. But their main antidotes (besides a good round of beer and sports talk <G>) is lost to the "pantywaist" liberals. The right wing can always pick up a Clancy novel (or for those who never read, wait for the movie). They can see Jack Ryan (in the gleaming, endlessly charming and presentable form of Harrison Ford) saving the country from any gloom-and-doom the media can come up with. They can believe that, in spite of the "damned Democrats" continually trying to gut the military for "free hand outs for whiners" that we have "the best military the world has ever known" and that "no other country on earth can compete with us."

The Mature-Soul, left-wing activists (and Old Souls who continue to buy into the drama of all this), can only helplessly look on as the Young Souls (the movers and shakers who know how to grasp, wield and hold power) seemingly make up endless real-world action movie plots which they play out and partially resolve in the world political arena for their own ongoing amusement.

Why should Young Souls fear the posturings of Baby Souls? (They would never use this language of course, but this is how they would experience it in their gut.) They might sense, and rightly so, history shows us, that no matter how far a Baby Soul despot (for example, Hitler) chooses to go, the Young Soul warriors (provided the Baby Souls in their command are obedient, and the whining Mature Souls don't go on and on too long about ethics <G>) can take out any Baby-Soul attempt to hold power that appears on their "stage." (Do you notice the military uses the term "theater" to refer to the arena of their current armed conflicts?)

One final thought that is coming up for me in re: world politics of power. I believe that, like the toddlers that Jose Stevens has compared them to, Baby Souls are very "imprintable." Thus, while Young Souls are controlling the world's will and consciousness, Baby Souls around the world (aided and abetted by the omnicient images presented by the media) are imitating *them* and trying to make war and politically maneuver "like the big boys," the young soul superpowers. But once Mature Soul consciousness begins to come increasingly into ascendance within the next 50 years or so, Baby Souls will begin to imitate the more ethically-based (or at least potentially so) behaviors of Mature Souls and there will be an automatic shift in the perceived "imperatives" of Baby Soul countries in the options they choose among for political and/or military actions.

Oh, I'm getting that, currently, and for some time now, the Priest leaders in the right-wing political arena have been led by Priests with Warrior casting and that the left-wing priests have a tendency to be Priests with Server Casting. Hence the emphasis on change through war vs. change through service. Any thoughts on this, anyone?

Kate

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:40:23 -0500
Subject: Michael Moore article Kate M. refers to

This is the article I am commenting on in my post on Soul Ages and War.

Kate

IS THE LEFT NUTS? (OR IS IT ME?)

 

by Michael Moore

Is it me, or is the left completely nuts? I won't bore you with the details of October's Media and Democracy Congress, but suffice it to say that the left is still in fine form, completely ignoring anything that really matters to the American public. I'm convinced there's a good number of you who are simply addicted to listening to yourselves talk and talk and talk -- MUMIA! PACIFICA! CUBA! ENOUGH ALREADY!

Speaking of talking to ourselves -- just who the hell is reading this? Who is the Nation readership? Is it my brother-in-law, Tony, back in Flint, who last night was installing furnace ducts until 9 o'clock? Is it the bus driver at the airport who told me he's been cut back to a thirty-hour week so the airport commission won't have to pay the health insurance for his asthmatic daughter? Is it the woman at Sears who sells blouses by day, and then waitresses at Denny's from 8 P.M. to midnight?

No. The person reading this would probably sympathize with the one who wrote the flier I saw at the media congress announcing a "Stop Police Brutality Demonstration." The flier promised a rally "from 4 P.M. UNTIL THE TRUTH COMES OUT!" Until the truth comes out? Let me tell you, friend, the truth ain't ever coming out at your rally, and neither is Tony the furnace installer, 'cause he's got mouths to feed. But you don't really mean by saying that the demonstration is going to last "until the truth comes out" is that it will go deep into the night, until all self-serving, attention-starved "lefties" have had their hour and fifteen minutes at the podium. Get a clue! Go away!

Is it true what they say about "the left" -- that it loves humanity but loathes people? I want to let you in on a little secret I've discovered: "The people" are already way ahead of "the left." After years of being downsized, rightsized, re-engineered and forced to work longer hours for less pay and fewer benefits, they already know from their personal experience that our economic system is unfair, unjust and undemocratic. They know the evil it does and the havoc it wreaks on their lives. They know that corporate America is the enemy, that the media are telling them lies and that the Democrats and the Republicans are actually the same party, and that neither is worth voting for. Look at any Gallup poll and you'll see that the public is very "left" on all the issues -- the majority are pro-choice, pro-environment, pro-labor.

Yet they despise liberals. If they knew where to find the nutty left, they'd despise them, too. They see liberals, progressives and lefties as arrogant, self-righteous and dreadfully predictable. They know you won't ever go have a beer with them, or talk to them about how the Indians did in teh Series. Christ, can you even name a single Cleveland Indian?

And why should you? You've got The Nation and Pacifica, and food co-op and your Working Assets credit card. Don't get me wrong -- I love The Nation and Pacifica and food co-ops and not supporting Citibank. But if you stop there and refuse to participate in the real world, how are you ever going to effect change? Back in the eighties thousands of you went to Nicaragua in Sandinista brigades. Yes, that was important work; our government was killing innocent people. But I never saw a single one of you come to Flint while the world's largest company was destroying the lives of 30,000 families. Where were you when we needed you? The people in Flint were ready -- Jesse Jackson beat Dukakis by a 9-to-1 margin there. In the white suburbs, Jackson beat him by a 4-to-1 margin! You should have come! The right wing did. They organized the Michigan Militia. It's no accident that Terry Nichols is from the Flint area.

Here's the part I don't get. Remember the antiwar movement, when we didn't have the American public on our side and actually had to go out and convince people the war was wrong? That was tough, but we did it. These days, the difficult organizing work has already been done for us by Big Business. It has spent the past decade destroying the middle class and brutalizing the poor. Beating up on the poor, I get -- that's the way it's always been. But the middle class? What a stupid error in judgment -- and now there are millions of Americans waiting to vent their anger and frustration.

And where are we? Inside New York's Cooper Union chanting for Mumia! I want Mumia to live, I've signed the petitions, I've helped pay for the ads -- hell, I'll personally go and kick the butt of the governor of Pennsylvania! But, for chrissakes, the woman working at Sears just wants to be able to spend an hour with her kids before she heads off to Denny's. Can't we help her? Do you want to help her?

It's taken me a while to figure it all out, and after last month's Media and Democracy Congress I think I have the answer: Because "the left" has lost so many battles, it now doesn't know how to live any other way. It's kind of scary, isn't it, to think that we could actually reach a mass audience. Or that after all these years of failure, real change could actually occur in our lifetime. Better to fight among ourselves! It's an uncomfortable, unfamiliar feeling, isn't it, to get a whiff of real populist progressive movement taking shape. Better that we keep those furnace installers and bus drivers away from us -- they don't read Chomsky anyway!

The signs are everywhere, but "the left" can't read a road map. There's a whole New Politics taking place, and it's being led by UPS drivers and Borders bookstore workers. I say, with all due affection and appreciation for all of you and your causes, get over yourselves and start talking like a real person, then start talking to real people. You could begin by hitting 0 every time you get a robot when you call 411. Have a chat with the human operator -- the phone company will eventually have to hire more of them. Or sponsor a bowling team and put the name of your local Labor Party or environmental group on their shirts. Or try bowling yourself. It's where you'll meet Americans.

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:58:50 -0800
Subject: Re: Idealist vs. Spiritualitist

Karen commented,

<< Or is it "spiritualist"? Spiritualists see the world "as it could be" and I've met a few old souls who have the spiritualist overleaf. >>

    One way to tell the difference is that people have both sides of an overleaf. So, an idealist will slide to skeptic, a spirituality will slide to stoic, a realist will slide to cynic, a pramatist can slide to all of them, but usually picks a favorite. It's easy to be confused. Some people slide more than others.
    Being around people who have idealist and spiritualist for a while will provide experience in knowing the differences. In my experience, the idealists have a harsher edge in that they tend to be very critical of individuals, where the spiritualists seem to be more critical of group dynamics or systemic activities that are harmful to individuals.

    I'd like to share something else that was a very powerful reminder for me. Recently I heard someone speak about the "power of one." She gave many examples of how one person started something that changed history, or one vote changed an election or one person made a difference in a major way. I didn't take notes so can't quote the examples, but it was a compelling speech. Her point was that each of us *can* change the world if we are willing to make a commitment to moving forward, rather than sitting back and thinking that our one idea/vote/action won't make any difference.
    Of course, we need others to help. However, it starts with one person willing to stand up for what they believe.

<< if mankind was drowning in the ocean and you could only save half, who would you save? >>

    I'd save the person closest to me first, then there would be two ... if each person saved did the same, could the world be saved? I happen to believe in miracles :)

-- Barbara Taylor

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:35:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 4th internal monad

Hi John,

I was moved to respond to your inquiries about the 4th internal monad. I may have some similar experiences to share, having gone thru it. It will be a trying time, but have faith that your essence will guide you thru it. (You don't see people in the news dying from their mid-life crisis much).

It's good to see that you are anticipating it before you reach 35. Maybe you are an early bloomer, or maybe just impatient. I remember, back when I was pre-35 and wondering what my life task was also. From the perspective on turning 40 next Fri and having determined my life task, I would just add these observations.

1. After having done much self-help work, men's movement and other stuff, the age you are at now, before 35 approx., is the time for internal/psychological work. I do not think that you could discover what your life task is at this time, nor be ready to integrate it yet. It isn't the right time. It's a time to focus and finsh up your internal work before tackling your life task so that issues from your family of origin do not contaminate your life task, too much.

2. That was the path I took and from what I've heard, the path that many others have taken. Don't get me wrong, your journey is unique to you and all cultures have a myth about a young man called to a great adventure, overcoming obstacles, finding the prize and bringing it back to share with his tribe. (Iron John, Star Wars).

3. My best advice is to focus on what is happening now. If you cannot discover what your life task is yet, that's WHAT IT IS. Your essence may not want you to know it yet because just maybe, you might not be able to handle it, or you may not need that info yet. Trust that yor higher self will guide you to what you need to learn. I use the mantra 'Bring me my next lesson, Universe' and it took me a long time to realize that I held a core belief that these lesson had to be painful. At 37, I faced a major life shift, maybe the end of the 4th internal, and committed to my path.

I got these lines out of Sam Keens, A Fire in the Belly, where his good friend gave hi a bit of advice that helped pivot me. His friend said that every man/woman has to answer two questions in life:

a) Where am I going?
b) Who's going with me?

and he was warned that if you get these questions in the wrong order, you are in deep doodoo, cause if you answer the second question first, that affects where you are going. So ponder those simple questions.

Of course, I could be all wrong and you are just a very advanced soul, and that is the beauty of free speech,

Peter

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:35:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Manifesting Essence

John Rogers wrote:

> In _Messages_from_Michael_ , chapter 12, Michael briefly touches on
> manifesting essence. Quote follows:
>
> THERE IS A PERIOD, AROUND AGE THIRTY-FIVE, WHEN BREAKTHROUGH MAY
> OCCUR AND THE ESSENCE MANIFESTS... IF YOU DO NOT MANIFEST AT THIS
> STAGE, IT IS UNLIKELY THAT YOU WILL LATER.
>
> Of course, what they are speaking of is the fourth monad.
> Numerologically, this correlates with the second life opportunity and
> life obstacle.

This also corresponds to the Uranus Opposition in Astrology. For the latter, It's described a time when any efforts you make at self-transformation and growth pays off tenfold what it might at another time in your life. So as you approach this time of your life, *any* work of spiritual and emotional (and intellecutal) growth you want to pursue is "blessed." I think the fact that you are hanging around other Old Souls (as here) who are clearly choosing to live out their old-soulness is already setting in motion an irreversable intention that you, too, want to live out your full soul age.

Kate

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:45:43 -0500
Subject: Re: To Jen re time and soul ages

Ed wrote:

> First, we have lots of confusion happen because time differs in the
> different planes.

I loved all your remarks about time--very well written and clear! :)

> So channeled sources come from different planes with different
> perspectives of time, and it makes for translation problems.

Especially good point. :)

> Michael describes our lives as being in a sequence, as I mentioned.
> Life #217 follows #216 and is in ways a reaction to or result of what
> happened in #216.

This is my understanding of what the teachings, too.

> pattern because the other souls we are having dealings with are
> growing in parallel with us, and if we want to come back next time in some
> continuity with our experience this time, the river flows only one way.

This is a great way to put it! :)

I also agree with you that you wouldn't, as an Old Soul, in the same cycle, choose to *become* an infant soul. I wonder if you could even, at that stage in the game, choose to live your life as an Infant Soul would? Hmm. Maybe if you chose to be born autistic?

> infant soul. *Soul age can't reverse.* You can and do manifest younger soul
> ages often, and people easily make mistakes in guessing soul ages because
> the manifested soul age is usually lower and more obvious than the true one.

I think this is very clearly why the difference in soul age readings. Some channels are instinctively "reading" the person before them, and some read the Akashic Records. Lately I've added to the reading "score sheet" I've devised a section to indicate the soul age the person is manifesting and even the soul age that the parents (who imprint the fragment) were manifesting along with their actual soul age.

> It As one final aside, when we consider someone is manifesting X soul
> age, it is just a judgment based on our own culture, values, prejudices
> and ideas of what people are about, which differ a lot.

This is certainly true when various people go up to other people at Michael conferences and say, "Hey, you couldn't *possibly* be such-and-such a soul age, as happened to Gloria. I seriously doubt if many of those comments were "channeled" in a clear, precise way from the Akashic Records. :(

Kate

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:49:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Old soul disease

Ed wrote:

> For me the most satisfying use of the Michael teachings has been the
> perhaps 50 or so times I've explained soul ages to an old soul and seen such a
> dramatic lightening up as the huge weight of all the societal putdown
> blows off.

I've had this experience, too, Ed, and it's wonderful to see that relief in their eyes!

> I think/feel it would be really good if in thinking about old souls
> and dealing with them, we would focus less on the rather judgmental slant
> of some of the material in the books -- we're lazy, depressed most of the
> time, inclined to be bums, etc., not much purpose for living except to be
> lazy -- and focus on the positive, that our lives have just as much intrinsic
> purpose as younger soul lives, that our essence has definite things in
> mind, and that we are in some way (generally fitting no particular mold)
> wise people or teachers. Old soul lifetimes are about developing the 5th
> chakra communication aspects of our being.

I'm thinking that, as you brought up in another of your posts, that the channeling people do of the Michael stuff, just as for *anything* we channel, is influenced by our own personal prejudices and ignorances. Also, another take on this might be this: many channelings that come through, in fact vitually all the early Michael channelings in the Yarbro group, were directed at *specific* individuals with specific circumstances, trying to live out their lives in a specific culture. I would imagine, in this regard, that Michael's descriptions of messed up Old Souls is a very precise description of what commonly happens to Old Souls in a Young Soul society where they rarely find a way to fit in. Now, if Michael were channeling information to a Swiss Michael group, talking to Old Souls in an Old Soul society, I imagine the information coming through about the nature of common Old Soul existence would be quite, quite different. :)

Kate

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:53:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Body Types

Barbara Taylor wrote:

> I disagree with Ed -- body types can have quite an influence on our
> life as they are chosen to either support our purpose in particular ways or
> give us challenges to overcome (if we want that).

This certainly makes sense. In a culture that idealizes thin, pre-pubescent bodies in women, a woman who chooses a Jovial body type, for example, might find some real challenges to overcome about self-esteem and independent thinking.

> Things like the Internet now provide an international reach to even us
> ordinary folks. Imagine how difficult it would be to have to travel
> all over the globe finding those thousands of folks that I have agreements
> to teach world-wide. With the Internet, they are finding me and I can
> fulfill thousands of agreements easily and effortlessly (a major goal
> of this old soul :).

> Another comment about old souls: there are so many folks here simply
> because of the shift that is happening. Older souls have an
> obligation to provide some guidance to the younger souls. Many of us have
> multiple lives going on here also, which adds to the population explosion right
> now. If it wasn't so exciting to be here and we didn't have a role as
> old souls, we wouldn't be here now...we'd be humming on some mountain
> on the astral plane.

Good point. I like this! :)

Kate

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:58:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Things to Remember About the Mid-Life Passage

Gloria Constantin wrote:

> At the AMT conference one of the lectures given was on the Fourth
> Internal Monad. This information was delivered by Kay Kamala, a
> Michael channel, who swears it is a survivable passage. There are a lot of
> folks on this list who have entered and have successfully come through
> this death-by-every-conceivable-trial monad,

This description is also very like the description, for those of you into numbers, of any 13/4 passage--"death or transformation" is what 13 stands for.

> These are some of the points Kay elaborated on:

Thanks for posting those! :)

> I've been through it, John. If you want to call, I'd be happy to talk
> about it. Death was everywhere, but so was new life. I just can't
> decide which are the green parts. We're with you, babe. Have some
> courage. If not, the nearest toilet will suffice.

LOL. I know what you mean. I think I've been going through this the past nine years or so.

Kate

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:03:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Things to Remember About the Mid-Life Passage

Dave wrote:

> In all probablities, the inner answers you are seeking will not
> resonate in your cranium with bold declammatory statements, but will silently
> arrive on little cats' feet; softly padded messages that you will only hear if
> you can somehow manage to silence those crashing waves of mental interrogation
> that relentlessly hold you hostage.

That famous "still, quiet voice" within. :)

I've also found it helps to keep a journal. Many times we are getting daily insights and because we don't write them down, we lose them.

Another technique I've used to help me "hear the voices within" is to pick a time limit (I pick numerologically significant numbers like 3 days, 7 days or 21 days, which is 3 x 7). Then I type out a list of questions I am burning to get answer to. I set them aside and pursue my life. At the end of the time limit, I go back and look at the list, and invariably I have received insights on each of the questions.

Another way to pursue asking questions is to pick a question, write it out, and sit down and record at the keyboard everything that comes in your head about the question. Most people who are new to this will get a lot of negative stuff in the beginning, even insults, but gradually the voice answering the question will change and you'll get increasingly interesting, even uplifting information. If it is a question that is of particular importance, I suggest bringing in the time element. Set a time, again, something like 3 or 7 days, and each day sit down (preferably at about the same time) and type out the same question and write out the replies. At the end of the time period of 3 days, 7 days, whatever, print out and read all you got. Bring along your yellow highlighter pen, because I bet you you'll find some interesting patterns and trends in the answer.

Another thing to be aware of as you ask these questions: ask the universe to send you answers through people, the media (books, news shows, etc.). Be wide awake to the answers coming this way. When they come, acknowledge your question is being answered, thank the universe for sending the info you asked for (gratitude keeps the floodgates open), and write down each night in your journal, or just prior to asking your question and getting answers, what you learned that day. Periodically go over this with someone close to you, or at least by printing out and reading what you've written.

Kate

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:30:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Manifesting Essence

J J Tan wrote:

> (or whatever). :-) This is not to say that I rather have control.
> To me, "to have control" is also part of the illusion of the physical plane.
> I only prefer to go through the process fully aware of it, and making a
> conscious decision on going through it.

Just some musing on the concept of being "out of control" here in the midst of "maya." :)

A lot of us (esp. Old Souls) are versed in the Eastern--and Western Christian--belief that one achieves "enlightenment" or "sanctity" or "liberation" or "grace" by "surrendering to God," becoming "one with God's will." Many picture this as something esoteric like becoming (frighteningly) a kind of a kind mindless, desireless "instrument" for some unknowable "Supreme Will." Others see this as being as simple, and practical, as figuring out the "laws of Nature" or the "Tao" (which are, seemingly, as obvious as traffic signals if we but have the eyes to see them), and staying in line with them so we don't get hauled to the Big Karma Traffic Court in the Sky. <G>

Over time I've come to believe that karma is mutable. And I like the way that the Michael Teachings seems to line up with what I was coming to believe anyway. <G> To wit, we come in each lifetime with a series of *potential* karmic agreements. For example, we may have a potential agreement with as many as 30 fragments to be their parent. Obviously, few people other than mothers willing to have multiple sets of septuplets such as those born this week will be able, physically, to raise that many children. (Though one might do it symbolically, of course, by working in the field of child care or as a neonatal nurse, or what not.)

In this same manner, we may have a series of people we could be married to, a series of jobs or careers we could potentially pursue.

This kind of potential choice can make for some fascinating conflict in a Young Soul culture with a chief feature of Greed with a heavy idealistic Mature Soul impact which imprints us from birth with a desire to find our One and Only True Love, our Ideal Work (very fulfilling and bringing in lots of moola <G>), the perfect car, the ideal neighborhood, and on and on. We are raised in the USA to believe we must have and deserve the Best in Everything, and if we don't get it (part of our Calvinistic heritage) we haven't made it into the "Elect" and by "natural selection" must be part of the "damned."

I think Old Souls, in spite of all their "spirituality" play their own version of this game. We are always on the hunt for the ultimate Spiritual Truth. <G> (A little True Love and money thrown in on the side, of course, is always welcome. <G>)

We want to be *perfect*, ideal, without flaw, enlightened. Or at least Right part of the time. <G>

Along the course of this long, winding road of being an OS in YS America, I've come to believe (this is, I'm qualifying, JMHO) that "acceptance" doesn't mean being a doormat, being passive, depressed or inert. It means knowing that "what is, is." There is no "should," or "ought" about what IS. It is there before you, ready or not.

You have any number of choices about "playing the karma" game when faced with "what is." You can resent the hell out of it and play the, "Why *me*?" game. You can say, "Been there, done that," and peacefully withdraw.You can feel your anger rise (your "triggers," the little hooks, as someone brought up, that show you that you still have "heat" on that issue and are "susceptible" to get drawn into this karma because you still have "unresolved issues" literally "burning" to be resolved.) You can get pulled into the situation by your curiosity, or your passion (as in sex karmas). Your mercy and compassion can draw you in. Your fear can suck you in deep, too.

The only thing that *can't* pull you into a karma is your indifference. <G>

But I do NOT see indifference aka "neutrality" as being the same thing as "acceptance." To me, indifference is no reaction. Acceptance is, to me, "a willingness to let what IS be there." You aren't resisting it, "going with the flow" of it, or urging it on. You just see it. Clearly.

To me, acceptance, described like that (and not necessarily the same thing as the overall Michael Goal of Acceptance, but rather the spiritual experience of that concept which is discussed is most religions and philosophies of the world), is the beginning point of real, actual Free Will. To me, the potential for choice is *always* there. But, until you can see clearly as many of the options that actually exist, they don't exist for you. (The classic metaphor of the horse with blinders on springs to mind.)

Back to the issue I'm discussing: can we have "control"? When you achieve some level of clear seeing, IMO, you *finally* have the possibility of "control." You have overcome the "fence of thorns" (as around Sleeping Beauty's castle) by breaking the "spell" of maya (a state of spiritual blindness.) And with control comes real choice. With real choice, you have the "control" of a lot of options. Thus, to me, "control" is defined as "discipline." The kind of power that comes from knowledge, wisdom and skill. It takes a lot of skill to train yourself to see clearly. To strip away fear, ignorance and delusion.

The more you can do that, the more "control" you have. You get so you can see karmas coming a mile away. And you say to essence, and the universe, "Nah, I don't think I'll do that one. There's a tasty little bait outside the doors of that little cage, but I don't think I'll bother to spring the lock that slams the door--with me inside." You get so you can sidestep both petty karmic dog dew, and huge karmic freight trains. That's control. That's choice. That's...if you will...a fun kind of *power*. <G>

I think it's hard to get to this point, though, until you've pretty much passed through your forth monad we've been talking about. Maybe it's part of the death-or-transformation thing. Maybe you just have to live long enough to be near age 53, that age the teachings indicate where we've done about all we came in a particular lifetime to do.

I want to stress, btw, this is all my perception, and as such, doesn't necessarily apply to anyone else's reality. <G>

Kate

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:32:29 -0500
Subject: Re: 7 olds and idealist

Ed wrote:

> Dear J Clark -- You might want to look at the discussion in The
> Michael Handbook by Stevens on attitudes and Idealist. The characteristics
> that are bothering you are the negative pole attributes -- identifying
> excessively with what's wrong and needs to be changed rather than being in the
> positive where you are, from love, doing something about it. Here's a quote:

I tried to write a reply to this post and threw it out, yours was so much better--thanks!!

Love,
Kate

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:37:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Things to Remember About the Mid-Life Passage

John Rogers wrote:

> Actually, I hadn't really looked much at others readings, and don't
> have much of a preconception of a format. And I do feel I need to
> consult Michael through a channel on this issue, which is why I asked
> for a recommendation on a channel that might be especially adept at
> this particular topic. As of this moment, Kay Kamala wins by default.

I highly recommend her. She's been my mentor since 1994. :)

Kate

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:43:43 -0500
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Digest No. 1997-11-21 of Michael Teachings List]

Karen C. Croteau wrote:

> Yes, old souls *generally* think of the better good for mankind,
> however, it doesn't take many lives to find that one person alone
> cannot save man. These are lessons often learned by currently famous young
> and mature souls who take on big karmas and/or agreements to do something
> BIG for man (such as Clinton and his agreement to help save the
> environment--which he seems to be blowing). What I'm saying is: one
> person can't do it all.

I think Ed talked about this, too. It's a very important one to remember. And hard to do when one is extremely empathetic to the sufferings of others, which gets more and more evident the older souled one gets. <sigh>

> So I'll leave you with this: if mankind was drowning in the ocean and
> you could only save half, who would you save? (This is a rhetorical
> question, of course, but you see what I'm saying, right?)

We often have to make "Sophie's Choice," too, saving only one of a couple of people very close to us. This can tear you apart. Quite a dramatic karma. <sigh>

Welcome to the list, Karen--enjoyed your input! :)

Kate

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:45:17 -0500
Subject: Re: first words

Chris Michalski wrote:

> Dear Friends,
>
> Thanks for the access. I've been reading the Michael books since
> the first one in the early 80's. I come back to them every so often,
> especially when my life is changing. The threads between this work and
> the Tao-te-ching are very amusing and insightful.
> I'm very happy to see that this sort of work is prospering.
> The company of other self-aware self aware souls make the journey alot
> more fun, and easier to bear in it's difficult moments. I'm happy to be in
> your company.

Welcome, Chris! Glad to have your input! :)

Kate

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:46:13 -0500
Subject: Re: manifesting essence

Brin wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Just wanted to add my take on the mid-life transition....

Enjoyed your post, Brin--thanks for your insights! :)

Kate

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:50:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Idealist vs. Spiritualitist

Barbara Taylor wrote:

> One way to tell the difference is that people have both sides of an
> overleaf. So, an idealist will slide to skeptic, a spirituality will
> slide to stoic, a realist will slide to cynic, a pramatist can slide
> to all of them, but usually picks a favorite. It's easy to be confused.
> Some people slide more than others.
> Being around people who have idealist and spiritualist for a while
> will provide experience in knowing the differences. In my experience,
> the idealists have a harsher edge in that they tend to be very
> critical of individuals, where the spiritualists seem to be more critical of
> group dynamics or systemic activities that are harmful to individuals.

I think from what you're saying that I'm a Pragmatist who slides strongly to Spiritualist, and that's why I've been channeled as both. :)

> I'd like to share something else that was a very powerful reminder
> for me. Recently I heard someone speak about the "power of one." She
> gave many examples of how one person started something that changed
> history, or one vote changed an election or one person made a difference in a
> major way. I didn't take notes so can't quote the examples, but it
> was a compelling speech. Her point was that each of us *can* change the
> world if we are willing to make a commitment to moving forward, rather
> than sitting back and thinking that our one idea/vote/action won't
> make any difference.
> Of course, we need others to help. However, it starts with one
> person willing to stand up for what they believe.
> < < if mankind was drowning in the ocean and you could only save half,
> who would you save? > > I'd save the person closest to me first, then
> there would be two ... if each person saved did the same, could the
> world be saved? I happen to believe in miracles :)

I love this. What great info--thanks so much for posting this! :)

Kate

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:56:39 -0700
From: Gloria Constantin
Subject: Things to Remember...

Here's one more point I missed in my posting regarding the fourth internal monad/mid-life crisis--at this time you will also

BE EXPOSED TO UNRESOLVED SELF-KARMAS FROM SIGNIFICANT PAST LIVES.

Here are some of the things that happened to me: I WAS 37 WHEN THE SHIT HIT THE FAN. THAT WAS NEARLY TEN YEARS AGO.

1. My husband of fifteen years left me--I left him first, thinking it would be temporary.
I was driven by an insane overwhelming restlessness to get on with my life.

2. I had no money--I lived in my car for a couple days. A Christian lady offered me her basement for a while.

3. I borrowed money to get into an apartment which I nearly didn't get because I didn't have a job.

4. I had worked part-time while I was married at various and sundry, singing and performing in Denver (in lead roles) in various theatres in the city. My photo was fairly often seen in The Denver Post and the Rocky Mountain News. I love the theatre, I love performing. I can't begin to tell you how it crushed me to be "dark." I had the most beautiful garden...

5. Some of my cats were killed by cars or died of terminal illnesses. I lost a number of beloved animals in a short period of time.

6. It was discovered I had two very large tumors in my reproductive system. I truly hoped they were malignant and that I would die in the operation. I wanted to go home! I wanted to go home! There was no one to be with me at the hospital--my husband was with his new girlfriend (we were legally married yet). My hospital roommate's boyfriend was a Denver cop who nightly discussed the bloody beatings he inflicted on the people he arrested. They were also very "religious" and half their church piled into the room to pray for my roommate's recovery and my soul. I had no peace or privacy while I was recovering from a very large surgical wound.

7. A neighbor took care of my cats--but he was a drunk and missed some days. The same neigbbor had promised to take me home from the hospital, and as he was drunk, showed up 12 hours later. The hospital wanted my bed. It was very awkward.

8. I stayed away from my job for 2 and 1/2 weeks--it was supposed to be 8 weeks, but they weren't paying me to stay out. When I returned to work, I was given two weeks notice. I had a significant portion of the medical bills to pay, and as I was not able to find another job right away, creditors began harassing me. I had $.50 left when I found another job, but was able to pay my rent for the month with my first check. I was pretty skinny in those days--I ate once a day--sometimes it was just a snickers bar. Money, money, money--there wasn't any.

9. I held a series of low-paying jobs for short periods of time--I kept getting fired. Reasons unknown. The bosses at some of these places were brutal--very patriarchal, and very much bullies and CONTROL freaks. I was working at jobs I could do asleep, and I was very quiet and held in, as physical survival was in my face. I was working at jobs that were unspeakably boring and non-creative. I may have killed myself at this time, as I didn't care to be here, but my love for my innocent animals and the strays I took care of were the big incentive to stick around.

10. I didn't have family I could turn to.

11. I met a guy who appeared to be safe. He turned out to be abusive, cruel and wildly controlling. This was short-lived, as you can imagine.

11. I was utterly, utterly alone, and there was no time to grieve. Not so long ago, I had been safe, warm, and loved.

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:54:03 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Things to Remember About the Mid-Life Passage]]

Got some feedback from Kay Kamala for you guys. :)

Kate

Hi Kate,

I can't take any credit for the speech that follows the 1-7 pointers, but I
essentially said the same thing at the conference presentation that Gloria
said so illustriously in her post.

Unfortunately there was no tape made of the lecture, so I will write it up or
make a topic tape and put in on the websites for general distribution.
In general, the entry point of the mid-life tunnel begins with the Uranus
Opposition point in each person's natal astrology chart. For most people,
that age is between 38-40. It isn't until age 49 that things really shift,
although some people experience a "popping through" it in their early 50's.
These are general brushstrokes, but I have found these 7 year cycle markers
to be amazingly consistent in most people I read for.

Love,
Kay

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:08:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Things to Remember...

Gloria Constantin wrote:

> Here's one more point I missed in my posting regarding the fourth
> internal monad/mid-life crisis--at this time you will also
>
> BE EXPOSED TO UNRESOLVED SELF-KARMAS FROM SIGNIFICANT PAST LIVES.
>
> Here are some of the things that happened to me: I WAS 37 WHEN THE
> SHIT HIT THE FAN. THAT WAS NEARLY TEN YEARS AGO.

Wow, Gloria. That's some intense stuff. What got you through it and when did it start to break. Or has it?

Kate

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:22:41 +0000
Subject: Re: 4th internal monad

> I got these lines out of Sam Keens, A Fire in the Belly, where his good
> friend gave hi a bit of advice that helped pivot me. His friend said that
> every man/woman has to answer two questions in life:
>
> a) Where am I going?
> b) Who's going with me?
>
> and he was warned that if you get these questions in the wrong order, you are
> in deep doodoo, cause if you answer the second question first, that affects
> where you are going. So ponder those simple questions.

Wow, thanks Peter. I picked this book up at a used bookstore a couple of years ago, knowing nothing of the author, nor the book, and it still sits on my shelf. I guess it's time to blow off the dust and take a looksie.

John

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:22:40 +0000
Subject: Re: Things to Remember...

> Here are some of the things that happened to me: I WAS 37 WHEN THE SHIT > HIT THE FAN. THAT WAS NEARLY TEN YEARS AGO.

Thank you, Gloria.

I am soooo looking forward to this... ; /

John

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:22:41 +0000
Subject: re: manifesting essence

Thank you, Brin. And thanks to everyone else responding to this thread.

I am compiling all of your responses and sitting on them for a week until I move forward. It is very comforting to know there are so many of you that have dealt with this and are willing to share your experiences.

Thank you all again.

John

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:51:28 -0600

I want to thank those of you who have sending such great explanations these past few days. They have taught me much about the Michael teaching. What I find most interesting is the "mid-life" crisis. This crisis must have hit me in 1991 when it seemed like so much of my world was falling apart. It is only my recent move to Houston and coming to a new congregation and my wife finding a position that things are beginning to look better, as if everything is coming together.

Nothing I went through is what you went through Gloria. I pray that your life is now getting better. From my own past experiences I know that the best is yet to come for you.

Thanks to you all for helping me.

Bill