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Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 02:21:17 -0500 (EST) I just ran across some channeling I did in April, 1996 about soul ages that I thought would be of interest. I edited it slightly. Shepherd
MICHAEL RE: SOUL AGE, ACCURACY, ETC.
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:20:48 -0500 Thanks so much for posting that, Shepherd! Very clarifying. :) Kate Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:00:34 -0500 (EST) In a message dated 97-11-21 10:43:02 EST, you write:
>> What brought me to the Michael Teachings in the first place was
I, too, feel my life task eludes me but i have recently learned that it is not necessarily in "my time" that i will experience this. I just "know" I am on a path toward it. I am very new to this list, but enjoy reading and sometimes responding. I am working on a new way of living, via 12 step program, and believe that is how the Michael teachings are being introduced in my life. There are so many correlations! I guess I needed to experience the "bottom" I experienced to become openminded enough to "remember" these principles. (I was introduced to them about 6 years ago but was way too self centered to understand) I am grateful to have this space to learn more as I am an eager student. Love and Light to you all Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:17:13 -0500 Welcome to the list, R.Marren, and thanks for posting! Kate Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:53:54 -0700 On 24 November 1997, Kate McMurray wrote:
"Wow, Gloria. That's some intense stuff. What got you through it and when did it start to break. Or has it?"
This is my answer: I am crushed beneath the implacable weight of depair, of endless sorrow birthed of endless bitter memories, endlessly remembering the beauty and the pain and endlessly echoing their ancient sorrows through the corridors of time, through the passages of time, and time, of course, passes. This is so inexorable, this pain is so inevitable, and it is all I've ever known. I have seen the ravaged face of hopelessness stamped on hopelessness, that wide-eyed, unblinking catatonia that knows there are no promises left in any tomorrows. I am as still and silent as I can be. I cannot breathe, I cannot live, and yet, I live. Every death remembers every other death I've known. Resurrecting, despite my cries to the contrary, all the corpses of everything I should have become, and everyone I've ever loved. Every death recalls every separation, every abandonment, every loss and betrayal, and every instance in which I misjudged the impact of the moment, the oh-my-god unutterable and fragile beauty of the moment. When I have no authority and no jurisdiction over these proceedings, why feel? It is a mockery and a travesty of life! To live like this, a gutted eyeless corpse that yet sees and knows all, is more than I can bear. I am a piece of living driftwood, knocked about by random currents, battered by rocks, by the sun, by time, a particle of sand, a windswept mote destined without destiny, eventually to be dissolved to nothingness and devoured within the eons of timelessness. I reel despairing, and clutch at my impotence. I want to die--to be obliterated, to have this capacity to feel no more--no more! But I have no choice: I feel. Unremittingly and irrevocably. Irredeemably and irrefutably. And I will feel until I die. There is no choice in this, the dying or the feeling. I am devoured again and again, and still I am. I kneel in the midst of this dessert, an ancient, blanched skeleton, and raise my arms past the harsh winds, into the blaze of rising sun. I ask only to be given the courage to surrender. That is all I ask. I am frozen in a timeless space, permanently beseeching whatever will hear me. I am blown from this place and travel through great darkness, but in a little while I feel my blood course. I have surrendered to the Will that is not mine, and yet is mine. Simultaneous with the crushing weight of this death that is no death, I feel the breath of new life. I feel a love so deep, so strong, I know it never left me. It was there, in the midst of the hottest fire, waiting patiently for me to accept its embrace. WE CANNOT DIE. WE TRANSFORM. EVERY DAY OF YOUR LIFE, SURRENDER TO ETERNAL LOVE, TO ITS LIGHT. Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:21:34 -0500 Gloria, thanks for your post! Being a poet myself, my first response is to say: It sounds like you transform your pain into art. Your reply read like lyrical poetry to me. To be able to do that implies a certain distance from your pain. I've personally, over the years, found that kind of "process work" to be very healing. Does it work that way for you? On a practical note (warning: I'm a Pragmatist, and I've been a therapist, so I'm always looking for grounded solutions <G>), it sounds as if you have been suffering for years from very serious clinical depression. Have you sought any medical help for this? It is not something to be taken lightly, and it *can* be helped, both by conventional and alternative means. I speak on this from experience. As you may recall a while back we had a discussion on this list about how common depression is to Old Souls, and many spoke up discussing openly their struggles with depression. It is a serious concern and one we can all lend our support to each other about. In our own family, currently my husband, daughter and I (who are all Old Souls) are taking St. John's Wort, and I find exercise, support from friends, and other "natural" things I can mention (if you want) help a lot with alleviating depression (and the anxiety that is often paired with it), if you are opposed to Prozac and other medical drugs. Homeopathics, in particular, can be of great help. Also, this time of year many people suffer from Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD). Do you know if you get more depressed in the fall and winter? Best wishes to you for healing! Kate Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:59:04 -0500 Since we frequently get "newbies" on the list who are both new to not only the list but the Michael Teachings themselves, I thought I would post part of a reply I just did to Chris M by e-mail today in case other people may need this information: The Michael Teachings are a very practical set of ideas meant to be applied and tested to one's own life. They aren't mysterious (that is, "esoteric," extremely complex and hard to understand). However, it *does* take at least a little effort to learn the basic material. There are a couple dozen books available on the Michael channelings, and one needs to read at least one or two of the basic books. Learning the basic information about the Michael Teachings, IMO, is not nearly as complicated as astrology. Speaking as a professional numerologist, I'd say if one is aiming at full proficiency at understanding the Michael Teachings and becoming "fluent" with the jargon, one would have to learn just about what one would to master numerology. Many people who come on this Michael list and other Michael "bulletin boardss" I've participated in over the years elsewhere (such as on GEnie) are very interested in getting a "reading," Of course. That's natural. But it's important to realize before you request one that a Michael reading is a highly specialized kind of reading. It is not like a general channeled reading given in regular English you get from a "regular" channel. It uses it's on unique terminology. If you don't know what the terminology means, the reading will make little sense to you. If you don't have the time or inclination to get really versed on the Michael stuff, many of the experienced Michael channels are willing to not only channel for you what your overleaves are but explain what each one means. Of course, hourly rates for Michael channels (just as for any channel or astrologer) range from $100-200/hour. So if you are on a budget, it can be much more cost effective (as well as meaningful to you) if you take the time, before a reading with anyone, to figure out what your overleaves are by, as I say, reading at least one basic Michael book. (The Personality Puzzle is particularly effective for this. It asks you a series of questions that allow you to systematically figure out what your overleaves are. You can order this on the internet through Jose Stevens' web site and at several other Michael channels' web sites.) Initially, most people just want to find out for sure what their overleaves are. Once you have either first tried to figure out what you think they are--or not, you can send what you have tried to figure out (or explain you know little about the teachings) along with a photo of yourself to any of the Michael channels and payment. They will then "check" with Michael via the Akashic Records as to what your overleaves actually are. (BTW, our own accuracy in figuring out our overleaves can be strongly affected by how much we clearly know ourselves. That kind of self-knowledge can vary from person to person substantially.) Most Michael channels charge from between $20-40 for a one-page listing of what your overleaves are. Shepherd Hoodwin, I understand (correct me on this if I am wrong, Shepherd) also sends a short tape with a basic overleaf reading. Friends of mine got this reading and felt it was a "great value for the money." :) Joya Pope from our list also offers this type of service, and I'm sure that Kay Kamala (my mentor) would be willing to do something like that, too. As probably would Jose Stevens. Barbara Taylor, if you are reading this note, do you do this sort of reading? You can also order all available Michael books at many of the Michael channels' web pages. Kay, Shepherd and Joya have a web page, as does Barbara Taylor, Jose Stevens and Emily Baumbach. Others may have web pages as well. BTW, another function that Michael channels serve, once you are *thoroughly* versed in the terminology of the Michael Teachings, is to channel for you information about your life, that is, your karmas (relationship agreements, life work, health issues, etc.). Most channels can do it over the phone and will tape the session and send you the tape. It is well worth it! (You can also get these sorts of readings if you don't know the terminology well, but, again, bear in mind you will have to pay for the time it takes for the channel to explain what the terms mean.) Hope this information is helpful. :) Kate Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:02:14 -0500 I showed Kay Kamala, a very experienced Michael Channel, my post on getting a reading, and asked her to verify what I had said about her services. This is her response:
I very much liked what you posted about the teachings,
Kate McMurry Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:42:28 -0800 Kate et all: According to Emily Baumbach, overleaves are:
Saddam Hussein. Role: Warrior, Perspective: Competing (young soul), Center: Moving, Attitude: Idealist, Mode: Aggression, Goal: Dominance, Dragon: Arrogance, Influence: Priest (ET) Adolph Hitler. Role: Priest, Perspective: Learning (baby soul), Center: Instinctive, Attitude: Idealist, Mode: Aggression, Goal: Dominance, Dragon: Greed, Influence: Warrior (ET)
Jose has also mentioned that young souls love to control and dominate baby
souls. Controlling baby souls is done by convincing them that someone has more
authority than they do (Or, by being bolder/stronger, etc -- they want someone
to be the "parent" figure). Shepherd, thanks for that post on soul ages :) Barbara Taylor Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:27:39 -0500 (EST)
<< Shepherd, thanks for that post on soul ages :) >>
You're welcome, Barbara! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:31:29 +0100 Hello Barbara, These "Perspectives" rather than soul ages are very interesting. Could you post the others to the list please? At a guess I would say that Infant Souls are in "Surviving" perspective and Mature Souls are in "Relating", but that could of course be wide of the mark. I have several ideas about what the Old Soul perspective would be, but no favourite. Katherine Doversberger "The road to enlightenment is long and difficult; better bring snacks... and a magazine." Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:14:49 -0500 To me, Saddam Hussein strongly gives off the smug, complacent vibe of 7th level baby. I think he may be flipping into 1st level young at times. :) Chris Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:01:25 -0700 You know Kate--what you described as lyrical poetry was my attempt to convey the death-in-life experience of an aspect, and specifically, my experience of a passage of the fourth internal monad. Ultimately, I was saying that surrender is the key to getting through it. I do not understand how you interpolated from this description that I have been suffering for years from serious clinical depression. I will also tell you that I do not appreciate your calling attention to the fact that you were once a therapist, thereby possibly lending credence via a professional observation about my mental/emotional/spiritual status. I am not a pragmatist--I am a spiritualist, and as such have a very strong connection to unseen dimensions and the bigger picture. In this picture, life has no end and no beginning, and the threats and dangers of this third dimension are considerably diluted by this view. And as a spiritualist, I can slide to stoicism, and there I detach from the various agonies that will inevitably from time to time come into our human experience. It is true that I use emotion and painful emotion to create art. That is how I have brought audiences to their own catharsis through tears they've shed over characters I've played, over songs I've sung. I have imbued these with tremendous passion, passion which became artful expressions of this life experience. If I am indeed seriously clinically depressed, then I am also powerfully functional in the young soul world. I have been taking care of myself by myself for a long, long time. And I will continue to do so, as far as my eye can see. Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:11:25 -0500 (EST) In a message dated 97-11-24 12:44:24 EST, Kate McMurry writes:
<< Gloria, thanks for your post! Being a poet myself, my first response is
That's very helpful information, Kate, but I know Gloria fairly well, and I don't think she suffers from clinical depression. She's the prototypical Sage, and was simply painting a lush verbal canvas to add some color to her post and possibly fulfill her needs for expression. I believe her post was about learning that despite the negative aspects of her earlier years, the best path to spiritual evolution comes when we surrender to essence. Essentially, this is a woman who has a lot on her plate, but still manages to be highly functional on a day to day basis. I admire her openness and courage to be willing to reveal this vulnerable side of her life. Regardless, keep those posts coming, Kate. I always enjoy your insights. :-) Dave Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:05:05 -0500 Barbara, Thanks for your feedback! I tend to agree with Christopher:
> To me, Saddam Hussein strongly gives off the smug, complacent vibe of
BTW, FWIW, in an opposite kind of disagreement, I also have to disagree with Emily that Stephen King is a Baby Soul. Intuitively, and pragmatically (examining the type of work he produces) he seems to me very much a Mature Soul. What is your take on this, Christopher? You are the big Stephen King fan. <G>
> > Kate et all: According to Emily Baumbach, overleaves are:
OK, FWIW, here's what I get on Saddam. Not totally different, but some of it
a bit more fleshed out:
> > Adolph Hitler. Role: Priest, Perspective: Learning (baby soul),
I get agreement on all of the above on Hitler. Thanks for sharing it! :)
> > Jose has also mentioned that young souls love to control and
Yes, this very much jives with what I'm getting both intellectually and intuitively in my study of the Teachings on Baby Souls. They are like "monkey see, monkey do" toddlers in this regard. BTW, very interesting that Emily and Jose have individually come up with more "mainstream" terms for the soul ages. I relate very much to Jose's choice of developmental psychology terms. But Emily's are interesting, too. What is her whole set of terms, do you know, Barbara?
> > We asked Aaron/Michael about the middle east situation last week
How to the Stevens "keep an eye on them"? Do they do any energy work around the situation? Or are you just talking about checking in with Michael periodically about what's up?
> > Shepherd, thanks for that post on soul ages :)
My thanks again, too, Shepherd. It was very, very useful! Kate Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:05:57 -0500
> You know Kate--what you described as lyrical poetry was my attempt to
Sorry, no desire to offend you. I wasn't so much trying to give "credibility" to what I was saying as trying to be honest about "where I'm coming from." I personally always like to know the biases and so forth of people when they speak. :) Anyway, not that it means anything, or is a further attempt to label you in a way you find confining, but what you seem to have revealed of yourself in your posts very much reminds me of my sister who is 7th level old, has been heavily into theater many years of this lifetime (as well as dance and choreography). She (in my perhaps limited, mature-soul-psychology bound view) has been seriously depressed for many years and, like you, prefers not to think of "it" (whatever we may want to call "it"), her pain, despair, angst, separation from other humans, in that kind of terminology. Unlike you, however, she has hardly left her house for about 7 years now (she is 47, a year older than me, and very much in her 4th monad).
> I am not a pragmatist--I am a spiritualist, and as such have a very
This description, too, very much reminds me of my sister's take on life. Fascinating.
> It is true that I use emotion and painful emotion to create art. That
I notice this, too, in my sister's theater work.
> If I am indeed seriously clinically depressed, then I am also
That's great. You are alone, and revel in that aloneness. Why not, if it feels right to you? Best wishes, Kate Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:07:40 -0500 Dave wrote:
> That's very helpful information, Kate, but I know Gloria fairly well,
That's good to know. I have a tendency to "mother" people too much and worry about people who seem deeply in pain. Hope that isn't too intrusive or offensive! :)
> Regardless, keep those posts coming, Kate. I always enjoy your insights. :-)
Thanks! :) Kate Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:11:42 -0800 Thanks, Barbara. I still need to think about idealists vs. spiritualists. I've been channeled as a spiritualist but I can see both...and I don't slide to stoic-almost never.
<<if mankind was drowning in the ocean and you could only save half,
That's beautiful. And my point to jclark is that we CAN'T do it all by ourselves. We can only hope (and persuade, if you're feeling Priestly ;-D ) that others will jump in and help, too. Thank you for a lovely response to dismal (although rhetorical) question. --Karen Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:22:54 +0200 Good day friends It was with great interest that I read Kate's post about pockets of old souls in the US. The only information (Michael channelled) I could find on m country to date was from a black/white and old/new government perspective. Also, from what I have read so far, I understood that Iceland, Holland, Switzerland and the Czech Republic are old soul countries. I was wondering if there are any members from these countries on our list who would like to tell us more about how they perceive the differences between these and other countries. Regards Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:31:30 +0200 Kate I have a mother and a sister who suffer from clinical depression from time to time. I would love to hear about the natural remedies that you could recommend. Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:44:50 -0500 (EST) Dear All - Saddam is young, not baby, for definite reasons (besides that he was channeled so!) There is no religious fundamentalism either in him personally or in the state he has created. Like Assad of Syria, Saddam deliberately created a secular totalitarian empire. The Ba'ath ruling party organization in both countries had a basically secular socialist line, as did Nasser in Egypt. These movements had overthrown the traditional feudal rulers. There was originally an intent to modernize and reform the traditional society. I don't know how strong the idealism was or how long it lasted before the heavy characters completely took over. Quite a few other third-world countries had similar regimes combining elements of reform ideology, nationalism and dictatorship, though often with a fake democracy veneer over it. Had Saddam been a baby soul he would have imposed some religious or quasi-religious (like Marxism or Nazism) system on the people. He would have done so because he believed in it and believed it was his positive duty to push it on his people. I don't see Saddam as fitting this mold. The man is much too competent at game playing to be a baby soul. He has to be one of the world's historically shrewdest totalitarian leaders. He combines utter ruthlessness towards his enemies with very sophisticated tricks to maintain his popularity among the cowed masses. He survives because he is of equal or older soul age to his competitors and enemies. One other point about the Middle East, and it applies to "earth changes" as well. We have to remember that all those baby and young souls do have love and life within them; they are not just faceless masses to be regarded with prejudice. Every one of them has a life and purpose, family and so on, and they are creating continuity, that is, tomorrow and the day after tomorrow life will go on just like today, perhaps with gradual change. They do not want to suffer, or die. They don't want to see their families killed. They dream of freedom and pretty girls and life on a beach. They are NOT cocreating their own mass destruction or anyone else's. If a leader like Saddam plays on our fears by scaring us into believing that he or his people are willing to create mass destruction, it is just a bluff and a trick. Don't be fooled. The baby and young souls of the Middle east are very, very tired of war, hatred and unfreedom and are yearning to come into the 21st century with the rest of us. All the best, Ed Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:27:12 -0500
> It was with great interest that I read Kate's post about pockets of
Thanks for posting this question. I'm hoping for some feedback! If we don't get any direct experiences around this stuff, maybe we can try and ask Michael about it. Kate Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:27:48 -0500
> I have a mother and a sister who suffer from clinical depression from
I had to throw out my original foray into an answer for this, because I found myself wanting to write a book on the subject. <G> This is something I've lived with and worked with for a looong time now, so, I have a lot of thoughts on the subject. Let me try to just offer a few bare, unexplained suggestions. I find I cannot explain briefly enough for this format. --St John's wort, 300 mg. 3x/day--flax oil, 1-3 tsp./day --exercise, regular, at least 30-45 minutes/day, five days a week, preferably walking, which is very grounding --standard healthful diet: 5 or more servings (about 1/2 cup) of fruits and vegetables/day, adequate protein, 8-10 glasses pure water/day, whole grains and beans or psyllium in order to achieve the recommended 30 grams of fiber/day --minimal vitamin-mineral supplementation, with attention to calcium and magnesium, which are very calming --adequate sleep (if you have trouble sleeping, homeopathic or herbal remedies abound in health food stores) --regularly associate with at least one person who likes and respects you and who can mirror back to you a picture of yourself that is not shame-based (John Bradshaw quote, "guilt means 'I made a mistake,' but shame means 'I *am* a mistake.") --find someone you can regularly talk to about your thoughts and feelings, be it a friend, your journal or a therapist you respect --consider going to a good, experienced homeopath who can recommend a "constitutional" remedy. "Acute" remedies are for immediate, short-term problems, such as injuries and colds and flu. "Constitutional" remedies address long-term problems. Note that homeopathy, with the right practitioner, can even address deep-seated, interlife karmic patterns.
Love, Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:31:09 -0800
| From: John
One of the things I asked at my first private channel session just over two years ago was, "What is my life task?" I expressed no uneasiness or apprehension - I just wanted to know. The first thing Michael did was assure me that not all life tasks are monumental or earth-shaking. I hadn't tried to imply otherwise, but evidently many students feel their life tasks are. They then proceeded to tell me that my life task is simply my own spiritual growth. I think they expected me to be disappointed, but I wasn't. In fact, I wasn't even surprised, as it makes perfect sense based on what had transpired up to that point (it still does, BTW). I think Dave's remarks in (1997-46/56) are well said. It might also be the case that some people are doing their life tasks without realizing it. In _Journey_ on page 234 Shepherd gives 4 examples of life task summaries. The first 3 are rather large-scale, while the 4th is "integrating the lessons of many past lives." So the scope can vary greatly. Shepherd goes on to say, "Every life task is a focused way of allowing our essence to manifest in our life, and any time we are aligned with our essence, whatever we are doing contributes to our completing our life task, if only indirectly." Digging further in my archives I find this in _More Messages_ - The life task is what can be most easily accomplished by the focused and realized action of essence. In other words, when you are acting in essence, any work accomplished under its influence, even if it is only transplanting petunias, leads to the development of work on the life task. In a very real sense, attaining that state "is" the life task. /180
And from _Michael's People_ - The purpose of the life task is to use the focused energy of the essence in the framework of capabilities provided by the Overleaves. In a very real sense, the Overleaves are chosen to permit the fragment to complete the life task, should the fragment choose to do so. /28
Regards, Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/4.5=26/4.11>] Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:32:01 -0800 While going back over the early Yarbro books looking for a reference, I found a couple of passages that pertain to the Old/7 cycle. They are both from _Messages_ -
You do not feel the desire to seek the remaining fragments of your entity until the last physical cycle. Then, at that time, there is almost a compulsion. You do not always know why you do, but you always seek. /65
Regards, Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:38:55 -0500 Dick Hein wrote: ... Thanks for taking time to find and post all that great information! :) Kate Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:06:55 -0500 Ed wrote:
> Dear All - Saddam is young, not baby, for definite reasons (besides that he > was channeled so!)
Ed, I have to disagree... I get a strong sense of, as I mentioned in my previous post, a smug and complacent energy to Saddam. Seventh level, IMO. And as he can't be 7th young, because there is not the slightest wiff of mature in him, I get 7th level baby. :) BTW, I'm glad you brought up "definite reasons". With a goal discrimination, I find myself questioning *all* channelings. Just because Emily, or Aaron, or Jose, or Shepard, or Kate, or anybody says that someone is such-and-such, doesn't mean that I will necessarily buy into it. If their take doesn't match mine, I want to see the "definite reasons" why. You did a good job in stating why Saddam is a young soul, but I still see him as 7th baby. Kate brought up in a recent post the example of Stephen King. He's listed in Emily Baumbach's Cast of Characters book as being an early baby soul. I think this must have been based on that fact that he writes a lot of horror books, and as such he must be dealing with a lot of instinctual fears. But having read most of his books, I can tell you that in my opinion there's no way that he's a baby soul, much less an early baby soul. My strong take on King is that he's a mature soul. In _Rose Madder_, which is a fantasy/suspense story of a woman trying to break free from her domineering husband, he really does a great job of getting inside of the emotional life of a woman on the edge. Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. :) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 06:20:51 +0900 (JST) At 09:17 25/11/1997 -0000, Elizabeth Ferreira wrote:
> Good day friends
Just in case you are not aware of this, I refer you to Joya Pope's home page. She has an extensive casual account of her trip to South Africa earlier this year. Sometimes sad (in the parts reminding me of my crime-ridden Rio de Janeiro), but generally pleasant reading, not necessarily channeled material, but perceptions from a Michael teacher/channeler.
> information (Michael channelled) I could find on South Africa to date was > from a black/white and old/new government perspective.
I think that Joya Pope's book Upcoming Changes (see her home page) goes a bit further than that, giving an overall view of South Africa. As far as I remember, it does not get into soul pockets which should require localized reading. She is on this mailing list and may be able to refer you to other Michael students/channels in SA. Right now she is convalescing from a an airbag slash-and-squash she suffered in a car crash, but we hope that soon she'll be back on the keyboard.
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:11:07 -0400 Hi Dick and All, I really appreciate the effort you´ve gone to to share what you´ve found
because even though I am new to the Michael teachings I have found clarity
confirmation and kindred souls here. Also I have memories of agreements I made before incarnating this time in order to complete this cycle of lives and I remember it being an encredibly large task to complete...lots of karma to balance.....but if I succeed and I have every intention of doing so...then this will be my last life.I´ve rarely shared this with others because it hasn´t really felt appropriate and I also didn´t feel a need for others judgements or opinions as to whether or not this was possible...I believe I probably know whats true for me better than those not living in my skin or soul. So far I can pretty much identify with just about everything you´ve all shared and have relished the renewed clarity and confidence in my life experience that the Michael teachings reveal and I feel encouraged to keep on searching and integrating those fragments I have been shown lately and I thank you for your generous gifts.The websites you suggested have been great . Thanks Barbara and Lori. If there´s others I´d like to visit them too. I´m considering having a Michael confirmation done and perhaps some guidance on uniting my fragments and completing some karmic ties but this is my situation.I live in Chile,South America at the moment(hello to all you people around Orange County....I lived there many years) Anyway I am a bit isolated as far as snail mail is concerned and rely on e-mail for almost all communication( I just learned how to use a computer 2 months ago) as I prefer face to face contact but its rarely possible at this time.I do have a telephone but its very expensive.Is anyone drawn to doing a reading for me by e-mail? I can phone you with credit card info for payment.Like I said Im considering it but am not clear on it yet and since I would need to use my husbands card (I dont use them normally) I need to clear this with him also.I also am a Reiki master and could do some exchange of energy in this form also (I prefer this as I enjoy it so much) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:25:26 -0500 (EST) I wish you all a great Thanksgiving, but beware of bad bird. ;-p SIGNS THAT YOU PURCHASED A BAD TURKEY ;-p - A label on the package says "suggested serving": 1 bite - The stuffing looks suspiciously like the contents of your cat's litter box. - Men wearing white suits and oxygen masks arrive at your door and ask if you have next of kin? - A sticker on the side of the package says "Made by Disincarnate Spirits with an attitude." - The cooking details on the package seem to be instructions on how to build a coffin. - It tastes suspiciously like "beef jerky." - While eating the turkey you fall into a deep sleep, only to awaken hours later with several hickies on your neck and a crumpled note on your chest from Richard Simmons that says, "Thanks! I'll call you." :-) - You unwrap the package and find yourself assaulted by the stench of pubic sweat. - The day after Thanksgiving you grow small vestigial wings. - When you carve the turkey 1050 discarnate spirits leap out onto the table and offer you three wishes in trade for a piece of pecan pie. - After eating the turkey you begin to see visions that you're walking towards the light and dead relatives are greeting you. HAPPY DEAD BIRD DAY EVERYONE! :-) Dave Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:30:33 -0500 (EST) Dave: Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:59:13 -0800 Hi Kate and all, DETOXIFICATION Our bodies get so toxic from the processed and pesticide/drug/poison laden food that we eat, it's no wonder people suffer from so many various diseases, many of which don't even have a name yet. Some of the most recent ones have been multiple chemical sensitivity, chronic fatigue syndrom, and many other auto-immune disorders that make our bodies basically attack themselves as the immune system, battered and confused by all these foreign substances, mistakes our own cells as foreign intruders. What these chemicals do to brain chemistry still has not been fully assessed. Toxicology hasn't progressed far enough to determine the effects of low-level chemicals below the threshold at which observable effects are seen in animals that they test. From people I have talked to, this problem of having toxic bodies seems to have a lot to do with affecting depression and other emotional problems. This is my observation and intuition, but not mine alone. I do not claim to have scientific proof of this. Nevertheless, I can tell you from my experience, that the detoxification of my own body has made a difference in my life. The most important thing I have done to detoxify, IMO, has been colonics. No joke! It may sound gross or repulsive, but this is a very neglected and important thing. Your colon is the last place your food, with its toxins, goes, and if you don't take good care of it, toxins build up as harmful parasites and bacteria (as opposed to the good helpful bacteria like acidophilus and bifidus) grow on the inside of the colon which gets coated with sticky things that are undigestable, and with mucous from acid-producing foods (like milk), thereby rendering the ability of the colon to absorb nutrients unreliable at best. All that gets absorbed is the toxins produced by the bacteria, and that makes the liver and kidneys have to work harder to remove these, and makes us tired, feeling kind of sick but not knowing why, and a host of other things. The toxins travel to your other organs (your brain included) and who knows what they do there (not good things obviously.) So the water that is put into the colon directly during the treatment (and they do an abdominal massage as well, to dislodge stuff that is stuck to the walls) flushes out just about everything that is in there at the time--including much of the bacteria, mucous, and stuck-on stuff. One thing toxins did to me was come out my skin. I had scarring acne for 18 years. Nothing I used made it go away. I resorted to a dermatologist who got me on Accutane, and while I was on that, my chiropractor recommended the colonics. She said she'd seen a young man in her class in chiropractic school totally clear up from a bad case after he'd had many colonics done. I'd known the principle about cleansing the colon as a means back to good health for a couple years, and had tried some psyllium and herbal programs, but had a hard time drinking down all that stuff several times a day for weeks on end, and so I never finished the program, and had limited results. I decided I'd finally try the colonics, because I felt my body was so toxic. I found a few colon therapists listed in our local phone book, and asked my intuitive guidance to send me to the right one for me, and indeed, the first one I picked turned out to be a man who has a PhD in Reichian psychology, worked as a chiropractor for 25 years until his own back gave out, (I could tell he was definitely an old scholar, friendly, open, and a little eccentric) and in my opinion, has been one of the very best healers I have ever been to. He does the colonics at his "Alternative Healing Center" on the side because he said, it's one of his "passions." I know it sounds weird, but it's a very healing and transformative experience--and this guy does the Reichian energy work at the same time as the colonics, which works on emotional issues, as the water in the colonic cleanses the first, second, and third chakras, areas that are very neglected by the mores of this western society's imprinting on us. He also gave me this tea that has Chinese Mallow and Senna herbs in it, that stimulate the colon, to keep it moving in a timely manner (regularity that is.) He said these herbs are safe to take daily and won't make you dependent on them. (And, believe me, they work!) Us scholars are known for not being able to release stuff very well--and this shows up in our bodies often as constipation. The slower your digestive tract is to eliminate what your body doesn't need, the more toxins from your food and from unfriendly bacteria get sent into the rest of your body, and the harder your body then has to work to try to rid itself of these toxins....And, as we see every day, our bodies aren't very successful at this task unaided, sometimes. Well, if anyone wants to know about this more, I can give you my doctor's phone number, just e-mail me, and I'm sure he'd be happy to talk to you more about colonics and detoxification. There is also information on the WWW which I found very useful. I just did a net search on it. Since I had some sessions of colonics, I've felt a lot better, as a whole--more energy too. My skin has cleared up dramatically (but I do think it was in part to the Accutane treatment as well, which I stopped in July), I'm not as tired as I used to be, I get sick less often (now this is a big deal considering I have a child in daycare and was sick almost all the time last year, just like he was), and I haven't had a problem with being depressed in some months--although, I'd attribute that to other alternative type healing things I've done as well, that were very important for me, which included breaking down old patterns and limiting beliefs that did not serve me. They say depression is "anger turned inward," and Michael says that when you feel anger, that is the result of having unfulfilled expectations. This is really worth looking at, IMHO! What Kate says about eating lots of fresh fruits and vegetables, and getting exercise, are very important. Michael has always emphasized that we need more Prana, the life-force energy, in our food intake. You get this from fresh, live, and whole foods. Cooked and processed foods don't have prana anymore, and therefore they are a drain on your system. Even most agriculturally derived foods are depleted of prana and nutrients, due to the use of pesticides and forced-growing with artificial fertilizers and lighting. I highly recommend taking high-quality vitamin and mineral supplements if you can, and taking acidophilus and bifidus to colonize your intestines with these good bacteria (which you can buy by themselves, or get from cultured foods like natural yogurts--but then you've got all that mucous-producing dairy to deal with too.) Steve C. also channeled Michael as saying that praying and giving thanks over a meal returns some prana to the food even if it is cooked. I thought that was interesting. :^) But you know they're finding lots of evidence now of the healing power of prayer. So it does make sense to me. One more thing, I'm not a doctor, and I don't play one on TV either ;-) so just take this as my experience. OK, I could go on and on but I'm outa time, so I'm outa here....:^) Love, Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:01:57 -0400 Hi Lori, I enjoyed your very informative post and I just have a question.What is Reichian Psychology? Is it in any way related to Reiki? It sounds very interesting....works on emotional issues or the colonics do?? lots ´a love,M´Ixchel
***Do your Dream***Allow for the Possibilty*** Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:39:58 -0500 Dick Hein wrote:
> Final-level old souls rarely seek remunerative employment for any
Wonder how they support themselves? <G> Kate Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:42:58 -0500 Christopher McMurry wrote:
> BTW, I'm glad you brought up "definite reasons". With a goal
Thanks for bringing this up. As Michael says, we need to always make reference to our own inner validation.
> Kate brought up in a recent post the example of Stephen King. He's
Thanks for posting this! Very interesting. As you know, my imagination is too vivid to read King, but I like the way you describe his work. Kate Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:47:08 -0500 Mixchel, Thanks so much for your post. I'm so glad you are finding the validation for your experience you need here. That can mean so much to late old souls, esp. The internet has been, literally, a Godsend for that! Regards, Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:26:01 -0500 Lori Tostado wrote:
> Our bodies get so toxic from the processed and pesticide/drug/poison
Lori, thanks so much for adding this important bit of information. The ways you mentioned for detoxifying are very good. Another thing people may consider are getting purified water (I drink distilled), air purifier for your house (I use the Austin Healthmate, made to run 24-hours a day for 5 years, gets out formadehyde and other chemicals from building products and carpets, etc.). And, of course, if you smoke--you are a personal toxic waste dump. I never go around smoking. Can't stand to be within a mile of it. I also never, ever allow any landlord to use pestcides in my house. (I have an electronic device that uses sound to repel pests. I also talk to the devas of any individual species that occasionally invades my house and say, "Please keep this spider, yellow jacket, etc. out of my house. This is my territory, and I don't want to kill your insect, but I can't have it in my space." That seems to do the trick.) Herbicides are horrible, too. Instead of perfumes, I put essential oils in the unscented moisturizers I use. I also put relaxing essential oils, such as lavender and rose, in water atomizers and spray the air in my house. To clean my laundry I use special devices that deordorize and clean electromagnetically so they don't pollute. For cleaning the house I use only citrus based cleansers--use citrus, too for deordorizing the air. I use vinegar and water for cleaning mirrors and glass. For diet, re: eating raw foods: I have a Vita Mix food processor. I make my own ice cream and smoothies. I freeze milk with no antibiotics or other chemicals or hormones into cubes and put them in with frozen fruit and herb tea and sweeten it with Stevia (an herb 200 times as sweet as sugar that doesn't raise the insulin levels or decay the teeth). In my smoothie I also put high quality whey protein powder and flax oil and psyllium. It's a complete meal. (And, Lori, this is a very good way to take psyllium and flax without having to taste them--and they are *very* good for the bowels.) Another thing I do to detox is to every three months have a sample of my hair tested by a lab for heavy metals contamination in my body. It also tells you if you have mineral imbalances. The lab I go through is very experienced and they put together for me a vitamin and mineral program tailored to my body's exact needs. I am now working on some very subtle, long-term imbalances and working not for regular health but super health. <G> In addition, I have been, over the last year, bit by bit, having all the mercury taken out of my mouth in the form of dental fillings. The poisoning you get from that can definitely lead to depression. If you can't afford to get your fillings taken out, or esp. while you do it, you can take potenized mercury, a homeopathic remedy which helps your body detox the mercury in it. (I can explain what "potenized" means if anyone wants to know. It is a special way of creating homeopathic remedies.) You can get potenized mercury through Standard, a huge homeopathic remedy distributor. I'm also going to see about getting potenized forms of benzene (common petrochemical pollutant, esp. common in cities and often in our water supply) and other heavy metals. Formadehyde is another to try and get potenized. You can't believe the damage that chemical can do to your body, and it is in so many modern building materials! Prolonged exposure to toxic chemicals, as Lori points out, breaks down the immune system, leading to chronic fatigue, depression and eventually lays the way for all sorts of breakdown of the whole body. I try to do organic produce, but if you can't get it, there are excellent produce cleansers available in most health food stores that you can use to clean the produce. Remember that you *must* wash all produce even if it is organic. It can still have illness-producing microbes on it, including e. coli. Good hygiene is a must for protecting the immune system. You don't have to be obsessive compulsive and germ phobic about it, but there have been many shows on TV on science and news channels about scientists who have gone around in public places, like door handles, phones, etc. and taken swabs and done cultures. There is strep, e. coli and all kinds of dangerous organisms. When many scientists have observed hand washing in public bathrooms, they find that a huge percentage of people don't wash. So if you wash your hands and touch the door handle (use a towel or piece of clean tissue) with your bare hand, you are picking up, immediately other people's viruses and dieases from their genitals, etc. (Sounds gross, but it is a reality.) I don't recommend sitting on a public toilet seat without covering it with tissue, too. It's true that microorganisms can only live a little while without a warm, mucousy host, but you have no idea how long ago some other person sat there. In washing your hands, get under the fingernails and do the tops and rinse well. Remember that most people "self-innoculate" themselves with viruses and the like a dozen times a day or more by rubbing their eyes, noses or mouth. Your mother was right if she told you to keep your hands away from your face. :} (BTW, the hygiene practiced in most day care centers is a nightmare!) If you follow the Western custom of wearing your outside shoes in the house, be aware that when swabs are done of most Western carpets, what you are bringing into your house (in addition to filth) is heavy metals and pesticides. This is particularly bad for those of you who have pets and small children. They are rolling around in it destroying their immune systems. A big advantage of not wearing shoes in the house, in addition to poisoning yourself less, is the housework goes way down, and you raise the energetic vibration of the house in very positive ways. Lori, while I agree with 99% of what you say, I can't totally agree with the safety of Senna--it is a purgative and as such is not totally safe for long-term use. And it does not take the place of fiber, nor does any other "bowel cleansing" program. I was recently doing research on fiber, and it turns out that the only way to get the 30 grams of it that is recommended to be taken daily is to eat whole grains and beans. Unless you want to take psyllium. I take 6 tsp. of the latter a day. But 1 cup of Kellogg's All Bran cereal, and it doesn't taste bad, will give you 30 grams of fiber, so this is an easy alternative for getting fiber. Surprisingly, fruits and vegetables are not nearly as dense and full of fiber as we might think. You'd have to eat about a gallon of broccoli, for example, to get 30 gm. of fiber. However, the fruits and vegetables provide vital phytochemicals you can't get as completely any other way, not even in vitamins, so it's not good to skip them in favor of grains solely, as some people do. For the bowels, and overall immune system improvement, it's also good to take "probiotics" daily, not just when you are on antibiotics (many doctors recommend yoghurt when on antibiotics). Probiotics are things like acidophyllus, which encourage the growth of healthy intestinal flora--they clean the walls of your bowels. FOS is a special kind of sugar that only the good bacteria in your bowels can eat (and thrive on) is good to take, too. You can get it in the health food store. I add it to my smoothies and herb tea. First thing every morning, I take a probiotic (a nice-tasting chewable one) and drink two glasses of distilled water. I drink about 10-14 glasses of distilled water a day, some of it in the form of herbal tea sweetened with Stevia and, as I say, FOS. It's a yummy drink, hot, cold or room temperature, and an easy way to get yourself to drink liquids. Celestial Seasonings makes wonderful fruity teas. You can place a single teabag in up to 32 oz. of water, let it set, you don't even need heat, and it will flavor the water nicely within minutes. If you stir, within seconds.
> One more thing, I'm not a doctor, and I don't play one on TV either ;-)
I'm not a doctor either, but these are a lot of things I've experimented with
and which have worked well for me. Up until I started vigorously practicing
these things (and dumped my psychic vampire of an ex-husband, which was about
the biggest healing thing I've ever done for myself Now my immune system seems to be stronger than ever in my life. I feel more energy and strength than when I was 19 and riding my bike 10 miles a day and dancing (as a dancing major) 2 hours a day. I have more muscle than I did then, too. I can walk and walk, it seems, forever, once I get going. Only my friends who are really dedicated athletes can keep up with me. I recently had a stress EKG, and the doctor said that he hadn't had anyone take the test but long-distance runners who did as well as me. I feel happy about that, since 6 of my mother's siblings have dropped dead of heart disease, many younger than my age of 46. Oh, the thing about how I exercise: I do not kill myself, as Oprah does. I don't worry about "burning fat." I never worry about getting my heart rate above 120-124. I do nice, steady, moderate walking, often in front of the TV, walking in place. I have a set of dumbbells that I do for weight lifting three times a week, this also in front of the TV. I also do stretches and breathing exercises every day. I know, I know, it sounds like a lot, but I do all this like breathing. I never think about it anymore. It's as much an automatic thing as brushing my teeth, showering and using the bathroom. Love, Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:20:15 -0800 Thank you Kate for the great advice. I didn't mean to say that one should take the Senna herb tea as a substitute for eating enough fiber--what I should have said was that after a while of improving your diet, you wouldn't need the tea anymore, just occasionally.... And certainly pregnant women should not take it without talking to their doctor first. :^) As for the All-Bran though, it tastes like wood to me--yeck, I'll take the psyllium in organic apple juice any day. Even a gallon of broccoli (heheh) :^) It wasn't the taste of psyllium that bothered me, it was the thick consistency and so much quantity.....And then again, I must admit I am often weak--there has been a few days, since my husband's been working out of town, that I've invited Ben and Jerry over for dinner--yes, ice cream for dinner! Ahhh, but just not too much.... Hehehe. But we have to enjoy ourselves now and again, eh? As you said Kate, all fresh fruits and veggies should be washed and it is best to buy the organically grown kinds, because many of the conventional kinds you cannot wash the pesticides off of, because the pesticides are incorperated into the cells of the plant itself--there is nothing to remove them. Most pesticides used nowadays in the US break down into carbon dioxide, water, and other supposedly "innocuous" substances within a relatively short time, (wash them anyways though!!) but in other countries, they still use DDT (and the US still produces it and sells it to these other countries, even though DDT is banned for use in the US) and then this produce is imported into the US, and other countries, and so we are exposed to it anyway.... DDT and its metabolic byproduct, DDE, are found ubiquitously in the environment nowadays--even in the fat of polar bears near the north pole! Pesticides tend to accumulate in the fat cells, where they can stay for a very long time. Many of them also mimic female hormones, and their effects have been seen in lowered fertility rates of men over the last 60 years, and possibly they contribute to other things like breast cancer and heart disease. DDT has a half-life of over 10 years (which means, if you had some DDT, over half of it would still be present in its active form 10 years later). Imagine what the soil of agricultural land is like--it's dead. And so the plants to not grow healthy there. Ok, enough of my environmental trivia, I feel like I'm back in college, heh. Kate--what you called probiotics is what I was referring to as acidophilus and bifidus--or were you referring to probiotics as the food that feeds acidophilus and bifidus? I know that's good too as you said.
> Hi Lori,
Hi Mixchel! :^) I'm not the best person to tell you about Reich and his psychological principles--it's popular in Europe though, maybe someone else can say something about it?? I never studied about him in school. But, I do know that the energy work feels very much like Reiki, yes! I have taken Reiki level 1, and worked with the energy even before then.... The Reichian energy work feels like the Light Body Activation too. You do special breathing techniques, and you feel the tingling energy all through your whole body--it's really great. Very powerful. I would say that both the colonics and the Reichian energy work aid in emotional healing. The energy work because it works on a soul-level connected to the physical, and the colonics on the physical level connected to the spiritual....Sorry if I didn't make sense. Thanks! Many blessings, Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:04:37 +0200 Thank you for the post Jose. Yes, I am familiar with Joya's home page. Great stuff. By the way, I have been to Rio de Janeiro. Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:47:23 +0000 Thank you, Dick, for that straightforward and informative answer to my questions. It really helps for me to have specific references that I am able to read, ponder, and re-read before I take action. Must be a scholar thing. ; ) Thanks again. This response was extremely helpful. John Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:47:23 +0000
> I guess I needed to experience the "bottom" I experienced to become
Sometimes this needs to happen. Sometimes you almost fall through a trap door into brilliance. Buckminster Fuller comes immediately to mind. Congratulations on recognizing the fact that you don't have to wallow in the same muck forever. There is always a light at the end of the tunnel. You just have to quit feeling sorry for yourself, quit seeking the attention that brings, recognize what you have been doing, affirm that you now understand you no longer need that experience, gain what knowledge you can in retrospect, then move on. Welcome to the list. John Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:05:38 -0800 Kate, By the way for the list: I picked up a copy of Kay Heatherly's research on Essence Twins at the AMT conference and just read it this week. It's a pamphlet at present. Contact her for ordering instructions. -- Barbara Taylor Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:37:46 +0000 While cruising the Michael websites (I don't surf - the Washington coast is too damn cold!) I began exploring Shepherd's page, particularly because he was highly recommended as a channel by Ed. In his channeled session on Service there is some discussion of life task, and reference is made to old souls in particular. Thank you, Shepherd, by the way, for making this information available. John Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 15:26:30 -0500 (EST)
<< Thank you, Shepherd, by the way, for making this information available--John >>
You're welcome! I'll let you know when my new web site is up and running. It has lots of new stuff, and more will be added as I get time. BTW, I'm accepting general (non-personal) questions for Michael for the site. Best, Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:40:30 -0500 ******VERY, VERY LONG POST WARNING***** This is in response to Ed's post on Saddam. Ed, thanks so much for taking the time to write and share with us your insightful post. I've been enjoying *all* the posts you've been writing, esp. lately. I love the way you rigorously discuss every topic you sink your teeth into. It is very inspiring and wakes up the list by getting all our mental (and spiritual) juices flowing. I do so love a good discussion. So here I go with a response. :)
>> There is no religious fundamentalism either in him personally or in
I think you're making some excellent, and very interesting points about Saddam here. I do so wish I were more informed (in much more detail) on the political situation in the Middle East. Unfortunately, that area of the world has never been my specialty (I was more interested in the Soviet block, Western Europe and South and Central America). So I admit from the start that, if this is *your* area of specialty, I may make a very poor mental "sparring partner" for you. :) BTW, just to satisfy my curiosity, if you don't mind: where are you coming from on your assertions? Have you made a particular study of this political arena? You sound veryinterested, at the very least, in the various political scenarios there. Again, I'm excited at your strong, thoughtful input!
>> Had Saddam been a baby soul he would have imposed some religious or
Interesting assertion. And it brings up a question for me: So, by extrapolation, does this mean that you see Hitler as imposing the Nazi eugenics ("good genes" of the Aryans) belief system on the Germans as being a "duty" he felt he had to fulfill? If so, I guess I can agree that he may have convinced himself of that. Even though, of course, in the midst of that "holy" duty, there was plenty of room for self-serving aggrandizement to creep in. :) Oh, while we're in the midst of this discussion and since Hitler has been brought up, I've been thinking a lot since yesterday about Emily's channeling that Hitler was instinctively centered. My understanding (and I'm not saying I'm right, not at all--this is definitely something I'd like to see discussed) is that the Instinctive Center (IC) traditionally functions much like the lower or primitive brain (as per tripartite brain theory, brain constructed of lower/instinctive, mid/emotional and upper/reasoning brains). That is, the IC is "pre-programmed" with the karmas that we will instinctively slide into (find ourselves, without thought or obvious choice in the midst of) during a given lifetime. Thus, the implication for me with stating that Hitler is primarily Instinctively Centered is that his Essence (and maybe the Tao?) pre-programmed him to automatically, without any thought or reason, to engage in massive world-destruction. This is a startling (even horrifying) view of karma, and IMHO, needs further channeling for clarification. It puts, for me anyway, Essence function in a very different light than I had thought of it previously from my studies of the Michael Teachings.
>> The man is much too competent at game playing to be a baby soul. He
I agree with all you are saying here except the "to be a baby soul" part of the statement. :) More on that in a second.
>> He survives because he is of equal or older soul age to his
Though I agree with the "if" side of your statement about his shrewdness and ruthlessness, I don't, myself, automatically slide to the "then" side you've arrived at. IOW, I agree with your facts, but not the hypothesis you are making to explain those facts. I'm not saying your theory doesn't have merit, just that it's not the only Michael-type explanation one could come up with to try and figure out the why of Saddam's (so far) "great success" at the (negative) karmic game of tyranny he is playing out. So what are some other possible Michael hypotheses? Well, I want to stress I'm just mulling over this very interesting topic in a brainstorming mode with no rightness or "authority" via channeling implied. <G> To begin with what we agree on, as would probably any political analyst, yes, Saddam is very "wily" and "ruthless." He uses both these qualities together, too. He's obviously "clever" enough to know that violence systematically applied (making others helplessly watch it happen) is extremely terror-inducing, and terror can be a very powerful tool of repression. In this regard, he is perfectly willing to murder not only the enemies you mentioned, Ed, but his own kin. The latter ploy is a very effective means to convince his people (and the world) that he holds no human bond sacred. IMO, in his application of wiliness and ruthlessness, in quality if not degree, he is very reminiscent of Baby Soul Hitler. Especially in his similar willingness to commit genocide. Though Saddam doesn't have nearly as elaborate a reason for massacring whole social groups as Hitler did--he still believes he is very justified in doing so. Granted, as you say, Ed, his rationale isn't cloaked with idealistic rhetoric and is probably something very simple along the lines of, "Whatever Saddam wants, Saddam gets" and "Whatever Saddam thinks is right, good or needful, of course must be so." IMO, in the end, reasons, however high-sounding and "spiritual" the language may be, are only a cloak, a "plausible excuse" for the dictator to do what he is going (possible <shudder> pre-programmed in the Instinctive Center) to do anyway. And the nature of the "work" of being a dictator necessitates that one see people as objects, as pawns on a cosmic chess board. In the process, inevitably, the dictator is no longer part of the human race (he feels above it), and therefore it is impossible for him to have any real (as an "average," feeling, connected human would experience it) link or bond of loyalty except to himself and his own self-perceived demi-god status. So, having said all the above, I ask the question again: is this particular dictator surviving because his soul age is at least the same as his young soul and mature soul enemies (mostly the Western nations)? I might answer the question with another question: did Baby Soul Hitler survive and prosper as long as he did because his soul age was older than his enemies (Young Soul and Mature Soul nations)? He was a baby soul leader in a baby soul culture. Most of the nations around him were anything but baby soul, many in Europe, as I understand it, are Mature and even Old, and the U.S. was and is Young. He and Japan, another baby soul nation, managed to hold the whole world hostage for a quite a number of years. Of course, sure, they were eventually defeated. But these two very powerful baby soul nations did a bang-up job of megalomania for quite a long time. <G> Aside: I just did a reading with Michael on Hirohito, the Japanese Emperor from 1926-89. I get Mature 4 manifesting as Young 3, with Warrior bleedthrough and casting. Imprinted by Baby 4 Artisan mother (manifesting Baby 4) and Mature 4 Warrior father (manifesting Young 3). Focused/Creative Energy is 50/50 and Frequency is 35 (low/calm). Goal was Discrimination, Mode was Power, Attitude was Skeptic, Chief Feature was #1 Greed and #2 Impatience. Center was Emotional, Intellectual Part. If accurate, I find this reading adds a fascinating wrinkle to our discussion. To what degree did Baby Soul Hitler's aligning himself with a Mature-living-as-Young leader of another Baby Soul nation "oomph" his efforts and put him on a more equal footing with his enemies? Might be worth channeling about. I'm getting that Hirohito's role was as transitional leader bringing Japan from Baby Soul to Young Soul status in its consciousness as a nation. So he may be the example you are looking for, Ed, of a Young Soul leader of a Baby Soul nation who was trying, hard, to "play with the big boys." Back to the discussion about Saddam. Another way of looking at how a Baby Soul tyrant could hold his own for as long as Saddam has with much more powerful Young Soul nations might be to look at the situation as analogous to how children function in a nuclear family unit. Ostensibly, they are in a much less powerful position than the parents, and the children are developmentally much less mature than the parents (at least theoretically <G>). But how is power actually wielded in the family--or within any group, for that matter? Is anyone ever totally powerless? I'd have to say, no. I've learned over the
past 25 years, esp. the past 13 since I've been a mother, never to underestimate
the power held by an expert at passive-aggression. (The latter is defined as
being analogous to a dog that is licking your hand and peeing on your foot at
the same time. Another aside on power and purpose in groups in general: human groups depend on shared goals and mutual cooperation in reaching those goals in order to be "functional," that is, in order to "work." A "functional" group could also be called a "healthy," "successful" or even "happy" group. Even though it is a given that people in this realm are going to constantly form groups (defined as any two or more people coming together), rarely do all the members of a group (even if there are only two people) totally agree, not only on what their mutual "vision" is, but what steps are "correct" to take to reach it. Though "consensus" (all members agreeing before any action is taken) is the most "democratic" (and currently most preferred in the West) way to run a group, the larger a group is, or whenever members of a group have unequal levels of maturity, the more likely it is that a leader will be appointed or naturally "rise to the top." Under a patriarchal structure, in place throughout history in almost all times and places, children and women have been almost universally regarded as "less than," as possessions and as lackeys to be ordered about. So in social groupings, "naturally" the most "logical" leader has historically been an adult male. This kind of "easy" and "natural" power structure is very appealing in hierarchical baby-soul cultures. But, unfortunately, since it is not based on real "truth" (that women and children are, in fact, inferior beings), the "one down" members of such social groupings have inevitably, in most times and places, been forced to covertly seek to equalize the power dynamics. Hence, the all-pervasiveness of passive aggression. I think this is why passive aggression is frequently a component in the behavioral repertoire of most any social outcast group, especially in people forced into slavery. The people on top, the rulers, frequently use violence, of all sorts (esp. sexual violence) to maintain their "illegitimate" power (legitimate power is leadership by the consent of the governed, illegitimate is non-consensual, tyrannical leadership). The people on the bottom have no means to resist by quite, covert actions of non-compliance. (If it is obvious, you will get violently punished for it.) Thus, in times and places in history when virtually all societies upheld a Baby Soul model of Thou Shalt Obey the Top-Down Rules, a tendency to use violence (and shame, which is psychic violence) to enforce the social order is very common and very much accepted. (Alice Miller brilliantly writes about how an extreme of this method of child rearing, very violent and paramilitary, in German society up until the Hitler era, contributed to the rigidly obedient mentality of the German people, especially young males, that made them easy marks for Hitler). However, since the end of World War II and the ultimate extreme of genocide and tyranny the world witnessed with Hitler, as a result, on a world level, out of a need to stop "illegitimately ruling," the Western powers released the last of their colonies in the "third world." And in the U.S., we began a long-term movement toward ending the "internal colonization" of blacks as a "lesser species" in this country. This civil rights movement led to the anti-(Vietnam) war movement, and out of that the women's movement of the early 70s, and from there later "rights" movements for many ostracized and persecuted minorities in this country, including Native Americans, Chicanos and homosexuals. The upshot of all this rise in freedom and democracy is that it is no longer socially sanctioned in this country (and increasingly in all Western countries) to raise children non-democratically. That is, rigid authoritarianism (absolute, top-down parental power enforced by violence) tends to, more than ever before, produce other-destructive people, and permissive (diffuse, neglectful, passive, uninvolved) parenting tends to produce self-destructive children. The model that parents, whether they want to do it or not (usually *not*--it is one hell of a lot of work!), are being karmically (increasingly on a world level--this is a Mature Soul consciousness phenomenon, IMO) urged to employ is "assertive." That is, having clear individual boundaries (I know where I begin and leave off, and where you begin and leave off), and sharing with the children the experience of authority and autonomy. IOW, I believe parents of this age are being increasingly mandated, by the universe it seems, to teach children self-responsibility through example and conflict-resolving interchange. Rather than relying on the old hypocritical saw, "Do as I say and not as I do." We are to "rule" our children by reason rather than emotional whim. Or blind reliance on traditions of enslavement and disempowerment of over half the human race. But though children born these days intuitively demand this model (and our society encourages it), even so they tend to resist the work that they, too, are going to have to engage in to make it happen. (Their greater freedom to choose involves taking responsibility for the results or consequences of their choices.) And the effects of their passive-aggressive (non-self-responsible) resistance to the "cosmic plan" can be very painful for parents. Parents soon discover, from the time a child hits the toddler or Baby Soul stage of development, that one can *never* control what a human being puts in his/her body or what comes out of it--and these two simple truths can cause unlimited conflict between children and their parents. Thus, though children can certainly choose to engage in outright violent aggression in varying degrees (cursing, screaming, hitting, damaging property), IMO, their greatest power (because of, not in spite of, its indirection) is in passivity. That is, simply refusing to "cooperate." In my experience, as parent and parent teacher, until parents master the (highly complicated and infinite-patience requiring) skill of redirecting children's energy into more positive channels (helping them go into the positive vs. the negative of their overleaves), children can wield enormous (negative) power in a family. OK, that is a long, wordy analogy, but it brings me back to a Michael hypothesis about Saddam. In the "family" of the community of nations that is the world, Saddam is like a toddler (baby soul) who is absolutely not in agreement with the "goals" of the world community. In particular, Geneva Convention rules about respecting national boundaries, about not engaging in terrible mistreatment of political prisoners--or any prisoners, about respecting human rights in general and avoiding genocide in particular. These are all international rules the world community agreed on after WWII and our mutual horror at Hitler's excesses. So in this kind of large, world arena, how much damage can an unruly toddler commit? How much power does he have? IMO, plenty. And until the "elder" (more wise, more willing to care about the whole more than their own individual part) members of the world "family" learn how to bring recalcitrant Baby Soul, toddler, members of the world family in line, that is, help them "get with the program," redirect their energy in more "positive" directions, they have the potential to cause an enormous amount of damage. Thus, as a Baby Soul, esp. an arrogant, smug 7th level Baby, Saddam could, literally, almost single-handedly, if it goes too far, tear the world "family" apart. Of course, that isn't to say that this hasn't happened before. It did. With Hitler. When it happened before, the world family learned its karmic lesson, reconstructed itself and came back together in a historically new way. But contemplation of that kind of tearing apart is very frightening. Especially to a non-violent Old Soul like me. <G> So I'm always in support of any movement toward the prevention of redirected energy/goals. :) IMO, the major lesson the elders of the world family learned from the huge mistakes made in handling Germany after WWI was to avoid at all costs breaking and humiliating your enemies after winning a war. By engaging in, so to speak, harsh, punitive, authoritarian "parenting" by the victors of WWI of the defeated Germans, the stage was set for the humiliated Germans to desperately need some means to restore their national pride. Hitler offered that means, and they grabbed it. Fortunately, lesson learned, after WWII, in a totally opposite fashion, rather than again breaking Germany, or Japan, the victors chose to rebuilt their enemies' war-torn countries, thereby helping them to redirect their energies and need for national pride into economic arenas. And thereby preventing them from springing up later as humiliated outcasts in need of restoring through systematic military violence their national "self-esteem." Unfortunately, we (the US and collusive Western powers) have been less consciously (or unconsciously via Instinctive Center programming) careful in our dealings with other volatile Baby Soul dictators in less "central" parts of the world in the years since WWII. Since we are talking about the Middle East (there are many other examples that could be given), Iraq (in particular the Gulf War) and Libya immediately spring to mind. Why? I think its because, in spite of the (hopefully inevitable) trend of history toward a more loving, other-directed, world-community consciousness, it remains, always, very tempting, because it seems "easy" and "expedient" and "the SOB's deserve it" to try and "break" Baby Soul dictators. To use military might to "cow" them. But due to the nature of where we are historically since WWII, with all the international agreements about not invading countries (unless they have committed an obvious act of war first), the international community cannot just go in and squash Saddam, or any other dictator, like a bug. (Get in, get out and have a "nice clean little war.") Much as they'd like to do it, this sort of agenda simply isn't supported internationally. (Tom Clancy's fantasies aside. <G>) Another way that in the "family" of the world community, an out-of-control "toddler," late baby soul could wield enormous power and survive (even seem to prosper) for a very long time, as Saddam has, is this: In a game of "chicken," he could easily have more "courage," or be more willing to "gamble," seemingly, all he has, because he has far less to lose than the "older" more "mature" countries who are his opponents. There is a saying that there is no power greater than that of a person who "has nothing to lose." So, one might say that when you compare what Saddam has to lose to what the rest of the world has to lose in any conflict with him, he is gambling with pennies at a very high stakes poker game. OTOH, his weapons, relatively "cheap" as they are to produce, are not to be sneezed at. Like the passive-aggressive wife who puts ground glass in her abusive husband's meat loaf, or the passive-aggressive neighbor who puts sugar in the gas tank of a hated neighbor, Saddam has some effective, "passive-aggressive" (secret, indirect and relatively easy to disclaim responsibility for) weapons of mass destruction at his disposal. Time and Newsweek describe biological warfare, viruses and chemicals, as "the poor man's arsenal or world-destroying weapons." They are so simple to disseminate, any terrorist who chooses could spread them with a perfume atomizer. Another "ace in the hole" for a totally egocentric megalomaniac like Saddam in a world-level poker game is that it doesn't matter to him, in the end, what the outcome is. He is already "winning." (Which gives him a powerful psychological edge.) He is obviously deriving enormous satisfaction from the way the game itself is being played out. To mix metaphors, he is like a mouse--or a rat--holding a tiger by the tail. The rat, I'm sure, in such a situation, derives enormous satisfaction at the way he constantly painfully tweaks the tiger's tail and makes him roar. The rat also probably glories in the fact that part of the reason the tiger can't get rid of him in one bite is that he and the tiger play by different rules. Tigers openly chase their prey, bringing down and killing them in the open. Rats, on the other hand, hide and scurry and slink away in the darkness. And, don't forget, rats were the carriers of the bubonic plague. :} Another reason that Saddam can feel content that, no matter what the ultimate outcome, he is already "winning the game," is that he makes no sacrifice for his cause (unlike his people). On the contrary, he lives in extreme comfort, ease and wealth in a palace while his people live in huts and starve. This means he has been able to have his cake and eat it, too. Also, if he ultimately gets killed (and he is incredibly clever about preventing that, as we've discussed), though he may not be intensely "religious" in the sense that we think of Islamic fundamentalists being, he still is permeated by the fatalistic, kismet attitude of the whole area. Thus, the idea of death (fear of and need to avoid it) is not experienced, socially, quite the same way by him as the average American might experience it. For an Muslim who believes in the "holy war" of "Jihad," there is a big honor in an idealized death for a good cause. And even if, as we've discussed, Saddam is *not* particularly religious, he certainly is prone to the grandiosity of a demi-god tyrant who believes, no doubt, that "God himself" is blessing his endeavors. (The spiritual belief of the "elect and the damned," you know you are blessed if you are succeeding, is not confined to Christianity's Calvinist sect.)
>> One other point about the Middle East, and it applies to "earth
Yes, of course. A given. We are talking about a 7th level Baby Soul Priest-Warrior-King (or Warrior-Priest, however you take the combination) and not the simple, mostly innocent citizens of his country (other than his self-serving, fiercely loyal, upper military). :) For me the reason that Michael's understanding about people, and nations, manifesting as different soul levels, is not about thinking of other people as "less than" or worthless because of their level of consciousness. It is, IOW, not about bigotry. Just the opposite, in fact. It is about encouraging compassion. If you know that a person is not like you, does not come from your point of view, you can be less likely to assume he or she is willfully and maliciously setting out to violate the most sacred tenets of your personal beliefs. Thus, this sort of understanding can help us to understand, and maybe even mitigate or rectify, the major source of the inevitable conflict, and lack of mutual understanding and respect, between individual people and nations. Another point on your "politically correct" objection that maybe we're getting bigoted here in our discussion: It's important to realize that as much as Americans may struggle with the motives and actions of members of other nations, esp. many Arab nations, whose culture's values and goals are so diametrically opposed to most of ours, the feeling is highly mutual. Arabs are frequently quoted, esp. fundamentalists, as saying the U.S. (and all its citizens) are "the Great Satan." They see our women as whores and our men as mass murderers of Arabs. And our media as attempting to broadcast our tainted social values in order to, in an act of "cultural tyranny," imprint their people with "false values," thereby taking down their ancient (and superior) civilization. They have a right to this opinion. It may sound "bigoted," but there is big justification for it, from their point of view. :) So, in sum on this issue: I believe it does not automatically make one a "politically incorrect" bigot if one talks about the personalities of the social groups that people form. Long before Michael, many different arenas of study have talked about nations having personalities. Not just spiritual teachers, but political scientists as well deal with this issue. I believe there is quite a bit of difference between hurling racial slurs as a means of boxing in a whole group of people as worthy of being exterminated (making them faceless, worthless "things") and systematically, compassionately, and in a quest for understanding, talking about the personalities and goals of the various social groups that we *all* belong to. I think it may well be impossible for any of us to truly understand the basis for our automatic, Instinctive Center (primitive brain), Essence, and social programming, even if we try our best to engage in open, logical, systematic inquiry about the nature of our reality. Maybe most of us won't have the ability to even try to do this until after or during our 4th monad. Because if we get too good at it, the confusing "cloud" of Maya begins to disperse, we see what is really real, and maybe we won't be so apt to play the "karma game" on "automatic pilot." :) Personally, I *hate* being in automatic pilot mode, so this sort of discussion I find truly helpful. For example, when as an Old Soul living in the U.S. I put myself in that larger context, many confusing events in my life for the first time began to make a *lot* of sense. I am not coming out of a vacuum. My actions are about my history. The choices I have made and have been manipulated or constrained into making. Or the choices I have run away from making (squealing in horror at my so-called Young Soul options <G>). And due to knowing my context, things like feeling different, set apart, even outcast within this culture have begun to make sense to me. By the same token, I've found that when I, as accurately as possible (trying not to project *me* onto the other), put myself in the shoes of other soul-aged groups, I'm more able to predict their actions. And not be shocked to the core because they don't act like *I* would have acted in a given situation. Also, such a stance, in the case of a discussion like the present one, helps me to imagine what it might feel like to a Baby Soul leader or nation faced with the paternal incursions of an older-souled nation or nations offering advice, or forcing actions, "for the good of the world community as a whole" that violate everything that the Baby Souls in question hold sacred. Oh, in this regard, looking at contexts, when I imagine the reaction of a Baby Soul nation or leader "threatened," as they see it, by Young Soul superpowers, I see a very different situation than that created when a Baby Soul nation is surrounded by Mature Soul countries or even Infant Soul Countries (the latter may not exist now, but has in the past in history). >> Every one of them has a life and purpose, family and so on, and they are creating continuity, that is, tomorrow and the day after tomorrow life will go on just like today, perhaps with gradual change. They do not want to suffer, or die. They don't want to see their families killed.<<Granted. This is very obvious and clear. No matter the soul age, certain biological and human imperatives seem to be universal. Using Michael language, they are programmed into the Instinctual Center.
>> They dream of freedom and pretty girls and life on a beach.<<
My apologies if it offends, but I have to disagree very strongly with this statement. I believe it is an unwarranted overgeneralization from your own experience as an American raised in a young soul culture of freedom and individualism to say that "everyone," including Middle Easterners, wants these sorts of things. In the time I have spent over the years talking, teaching and living with many different people from the Far and Middle East (India, Korea, Japan, China, various Arab nations), in my experience, persons from these cultures do NOT, in fact, dream the same dream that Westerners do. In fact, to them, the very concept of individualism, and our ideas of "freedom" are anathema. It literally sickens them. They cannot imagine living the way we do. I'm talking about our attitudes about marriage, the family, our local communities. They abhor our "selfishness," our rootlessness, our disrespect for tradition, our materialism, and, above all, our "Godlessness." As for the "pretty girls" desire, granted, Easterners treat women like objects and possessions, as patriarchal cultures always have, but they do it in a very different way than Americans. They don't have pictures of near-naked, rail-thin women with pre-pubescent bodies splattered everywhere. They don't see owning one of these women, as American men are trained to do, as an ultimate "dream" goal. The beach image also, to me, is very much an American dreamer kind of desire. A "selfish" desire to laze on the beach is not necessarily going to be the desire of an Arab not totally indoctrinated in the worst of Americana by watching secret broadcasts of Bay Watch. :} I think it's laudable to try and see other people in different cultures as "human, just like me," but it is a mistake not to understand that we are all products of our individual, distinct, different-soul-aged cultures, and not to project our different needs, and cultural imperatives, onto the psyche of people of other cultures. Esp. those whose traditions and karmic historical goals or "through lines" are almost dead opposite to ours.
>> They are NOT cocreating their own mass destruction or anyone
I would say to this, yes, of course. Consciously, who would make such a choice? Only a nut case. OTOH, what about karma? Granted, one of the things most of us hate (at least I always did) about any theory of "karma," up to and including the Michael Teachings, is the thought that we would, any of us, actually somehow, some way, somewhere, with a certain conscious choice (however unavailable to us to remember it) set up karmic situations where we are guaranteed to suffer. Often horribly. It is, as I brought out a bit above, an awful thought, to me at least, on a certain level, that my or anyone else's Instinctive Center could be pre-programmed with plots to yank me or others into self- or other-destructive actions. Whether direct and evident, or indirect and collusive. But, if we look at this karmically, there is no arguing that from time immemorial, metaphysically it has been constantly argued that each nation gets the leader it "deserves" and that we are *all*, universally, on every level of society, from the family, to the neighborhood, to the nation, to the world, to the universe, participating in a mass visualization or agreement for what our various levels of human groupings will "look like." I'm not saying this belief system is "right" or a tidy, "rational" explanation, but it certainly has a long, hoary history. And it does make sense to a lot of us. And, yes, to a certain extent, the Michael teachings themselves buy into this reincarnational, karmic belief. But the compassionate part of the theory is that, at least in my understanding, knowledge has always been there, should we choose to assiduously seek it, about the "rules of the game." That's why we can find out about our overleaves and karmas, and can reach out and attempt even to expose the embedded, totally unconscious "programmed" assumptions in our Instinctive Centers. The more information of that sort we can reveal to ourselves, the more we can begin to truly, consciously (rather than unconsciously and in a deterministic, non-free-will manner) live out scripts our lineage, society, and Essence have set us in the most positive manner possible.
>> If a leader like Saddam plays on our fears by scaring us into
I believe this statement is partially accurate. IMO, the issue with Iraq has always been about Saddam, not the common people who are so much cannon fodder to him. Due to their social training to be absolutely obedient (that part of the world has never participated in the only centuries-old social experiment of democracy), and Saddam's judicious reinforcement of that tradition with the kinds of violence I've talked about above, I believe the Iraqis (other than Saddam's elite military people) are firmly convinced they are living out a "kismet" with Saddam they have no power to change. Certainly, I agree with you that the common people, the ones living in huts while Saddam is living in a palace, have been quoted in the media many times as saying they are very, very tired of the poverty from the economic sanctions Saddam's actions brought on the country and that resulted from the Gulf War itself. But what can they do to stop it? What political power do they have? None. So, no, I agree, they are not contributing to the problem, they don't want it, but they can't do anything about it, in their perception. Having said all that, there is an irony here. One of the (often sad) truths or "rules" of this dimension is that a perception of powerlessness is a very powerful visualization. What you believe, you create. Now, that isn't to say that when one reads the "odds" of a particular fragment, or group of fragments, for catharsing and throwing off a (in this case millenniums' old) perception might not be, at a particular point in history, very good indeed. Many times in history a downtrodden group will have a karmic agreement to maintain a group perception of enslavement, and then, suddenly, that group perception, almost universally by the whole group, is cast aside. Such a scenario may or may not happen in the Middle East any time soon. FWIW, when I ask about it (channel on it), I get a 20% chance the bonds will be thrown off in this area in the next 50 years. So what does that mean? Is your assertion that most of the people in the Middle East want to come "into the 21st century" possibly true? Maybe. Anything is possible. But for practical, even more than intuitive, reasons I find the probability very low anytime soon. Many of the leaders in the Middle East, as political analysts tell us, are "businessmen," and as such, very pragmatic. But in contrast to them, millions of "regular" people there believe that they are the proud possessors of a thousands of years old tradition that is holy and not to be tampered with. What does the "21st century" AKA "U.S. values" have to offer people who believe they have a divinely inspired social tradition to cling to? In their perception, very little. Again, great discussion, Ed--thanks! Love, Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 00:03:33 +0100 Barbara Taylor wrote:
> My full set of terms is on my web site. Jose, Lena and I have talked about
Thanks Barbara, I will check out your versions at your website. I am very interested in this. Incidently if anyone, for any purpose, needs the whole basic Michael vocabulary in German, I have that here.
> Jose now uses the terms: infant, baby, toddler, adolescent, adult,
I am familiar with Jose's version, and, with respect, I don't care for these. In his Chief Feature book he writes of people being "fixated" at a Baby or Adolescent level or whichever. I find that telling adult people that they are stuck at a less than adult level and that they can never in their lives (this life) reach an adult level is insulting and counterproductive... The implication is that there is something wrong with them. That is what made me start looking for new terms for the various soul ages in the first place. What intrigued me about your terms is that they abandoned the metaphor of age altogether and were descriptive without setting up a hierarchy. They could be said to anyone's face without causing insult or misunderstanding. Peace, Katherine Doversberger Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:25:29 -0500 (EST) Hello all.. Amy Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:33:04 -0500 Welcome to the list, Amy. I'm not that far South. In the Atlanta area. Kate Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:36:02 -0500 Lori Tostado wrote:
> Thank you Kate for the great advice.
Thanks. And thanks for yours!
> I didn't mean to say that one should take the Senna herb tea as a
Yes, good point!
> As for the All-Bran though, it tastes like wood to me--yeck, I'll take
LOL
> It wen working out of town, that I've invited Ben and Jerry over for
I don't think it's possible for most Americans to give up our sugar. I don't try to delete things from my diet so much as add them. I find it works better psychologically. <G> I try to get in all my good stuff, like mother always says, "Eat your vegetables before dessert, dear." <G>
> but in other countries, they still use DDT (and the US still produces
With the birth of the septuplets, lots of comments in the news media about the rising infertility rates.
> Kate--what you called probiotics is what I was referring to as
Yes, acidophilus and bifidus. Some tablets include FOS, too. Kate Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:08:38 -0500 (EST) Kate, thank you for a tremendous piece. If you were writing for New Age, I would read it often! I hadn't before realized that young soul right wing hawks have a such source of power in in Clancy et al and Hollywood (triumphantly visualized winning scenarios). visualize world peace comes to have new meaning. I am truly fascinated at how this brilliance comes flashing out of you so fast and fluent. Gifted girl! Thank you again, very stimulating. I am still digesting, and of course as "Upcoming Changes" author, this stuff is right up my alley. Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:08:52 -0500 (EST) Hello and warm greetings. I love South Africa. Cape Town, one of the most spectacularly set cities in the world, still pulls me to move, live there and work. My work.......Michael Channel! I spent 5 weeks early this year in Cape Town and J'berg giving talks and workshops and readings. Cape town being the most laid back and yet sophisticated clearly had a higher percentage of old souls, but Jo'berg just by virtue of numbers has more. Seems like these two cities have the most active metaphysical and healing communities in SA and are where most of the pockets of old souls are now. Look for open faces, open eyes. odd humor, wierd interests and you likely have an old soul. Interestingly in SA most of the old souls I met were doing quite well with money, great houses, bmw's etc. Seems a value in SA is to be earthy and practical--not at all like growing up in California! It would be fun to meet Gay Avice du Buisson who is sometimes on this list. I have lost her email add. tho. You mention: Also, from what I have read so far, I understood that Iceland, Holland, Switzerland and the Czech Republic are old soul countries. IMHO switzerland used to be old but no longer is, seems more young and baby, stuck in its ways and happily depriving women of equal rights, maybe even voting. Czech Rep. has big pockets of old souls, but is not majority old. And I certainly found in SA cities a majority of mature and young soul among the whites. the blacks too have large numbers of mature, but interestingly out in the rural areas whatever their soul age exists a religion that has not changed much since infant soul days -- like burn a woman-witch if lightening strikes a village because she did it ad nauseum (well, I am a bit impatient!) And of course, Nelson Mandela is probably the oldest soul leader on the planet right now and what a miracle he wrought. :-)) Blessings, Joya Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:13:18 -0500 Joya Pope wrote:
> Kate, thank you for a tremendous piece.
Thanks so much!
> If you were writing for New Age, I
Do you mean New Age magazine? I wish there were someplace to write this sort of thing. I find the potential for applying Michael's "theories" to world events to be quite extensive.
> I hadn't before realized that young soul right wing hawks have a such
It was an interesting thought to stumble upon. I showed the piece to a NYT bestselling author who says she now has new info to add to her talks about the function of popular fiction. <G>
> I am truly fascinated at how this brilliance comes flashing out of you
Thanks again. You're very kind and supportive! I appreciate it. :) I feel like my Instinctive Center, if you will, has set me on a karmic course for over 20 years to develop this kind of thinking and until now, other than chatting with a few fellow old souls casually, I hadn't a clue who on earth I was supposed to pass on these kinds of trains of thought to. <G>
> Thank you again, very stimulating. I am still digesting, and of
Thanks again to *you*. Do you ever publish this kind of article anywhere, or do you stick to putting what you write in book form? Kate Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:10:18 -0800
| I just ran across some channeling I did in April, 1996 about soul ages
Shepherd, Thanks for posting this. Regards, Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:57:47 -0500 (EST) Dear Kate -- It's way too long to respond in detail and I largely agree with most of it, but not all. Where do I come from? I grew up believing I should get a very broad education suitable for preparing me to be a great leader or some such. (I learned soon enough that lots of other people had similar ideas.) So whatever else I've done over the years, I made it a point to follow national and world events as thoroughly as i could. I never formally studied any of this and my interest really is only in events since WW II. My political slant went into radical left and draft resistance in the '60s, then later to radical right, then to old soul establishment realism, as I would call it -- where you try to see objectively what is and the dynamics of things and do the best you can to use your small leverage for long-term good, sort of like what the Scandinavian countries do on the world scene. Realistically, political leadership is going to reflect the soul-age mainstream values in any nation. Older souls create and quietly spread good ideas that percolate down into the mainstream eventually. I also come from a place of complete inner serenity that both in the grandest cosmic sense and in smaller-scale worldly matters, the good guys or side of "light' are firmly in control. The extraterrestrials and various beings of higher-plane realms, while they in general will not interfere with our free will, will make one exception and they have made it clear that that is so. They will not allow us to destroy this planet because it is an especially wonderful and beautiful place with perhaps the greatest diversity of life forms anywhere, and because many of the extraterrestrial socieities are eagerly wanting to learn from us as we participate in what is regarded as one of if not the most remarkably rapid transformations ever seen. The ETs will intervene electronically to prevent nuclear missiles from successfully launching. Our activities are transparently clear to them. Aside from ETs, or, for those who don't believe they exist, a perfectly good similar agency of protection is our own essences, guides, angels and so on; they also will step in if necessary. I regard it as one of my duties to always radiate a serene confidnce in a positive future and to try to dissipate other people's fears of the future, which selfish and negatively polarized people manipulate with great effect. Anyone who follows the "earth changes" scene can see how year after year, the scary predictions just don't come true, and this is true for many other kinds of stirred-up mass fear scenarios. So in my response about Saddam and so on, I was doing all that rather than being politically correct (which I don't do, thank you). I agree that my arguments in support of Saddam being young were pretty unconvincing, in fact way below my standards. I wasn't persuaded by them while I was writing, though I felt what I said needed to be said. So I honestly don't know what his soul age is, but I still strongly lean towards young, despite all your arguments. The fact that you or Christopher "channel" him a certain way doesn't make it accurate, any more than Shepherd or others who have him as late young. We can make all sorts of arguments that don't prove anything. Out of all of it, I think you still need to figure how, if he is a baby soul, he is not strongly religious personally, let alone that he does not push religion or a quasi-religious system like Maoism on his people. A late baby leader would so that. It would be more than just a cult of personality. Hitler: I find Hitler was a much better example of a baby soul, and all the channels i've heard of put him as baby soul. I disagree with the idea that he was instinctively centered. Please excuse the strong statement, but the channel that said that should have provided a substantial theoretical explanation to cover a big departure from the maintream of the Michael materials. A person instinctively centered is, to the rest of us, insane and not functional, like an animal at best and a psychotic at worst. They are generally institutionalized. Hitler may have spent a fair amount of time in that mode, but in the Michael world when we refer to someone's overleaves we speak of the ones essence chose going into the life, which.form the general pattern. Hitler was very functional (as a baby soul) and very popular in his early political career and many people believe that he was a good and constructive leader for awhile in that he energized the pride of a downtrodden people. Soon enough he got so much into the negative poles, did he ever! But instinctively centered? No. I read a little of Alice Miller's book once, the part where she explained how Hitler was the very rare victim of three circumstances which allowed the monster to develop. 1) he suffered extreme abuse in his family; 2) he didn't have anyone, ever, to confide in or seek comfort from about it; and 3) he was in Germany of the time, a very rigid pariarchal baby soul society where such things were normal and unexamined. If he were instinctively centered people would never have been attracted to him in a lasting way (if even that) and competing leaders could have easily outwitted him and put him down. There is a whole interesting subject beyond our scope of how the various extraterrestrial societies of past and present and of the two polarities have poured tremendous energy into trying to influence us. It seems that Hitler was greatly supported and energized by what we call the dark side. Ascended masters' channeled information is quite good on this. Anyway, briefly, Hitler used his mind consciously and deliberately in ways that he couldn't have done if instinctively centered. All the best, Ed Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:26:15 -0500 Ed wrote in regards to Saddam H.:
> So I honestly don't know what his soul age is, but I still strongly lean
Ed, I completely agree with this. I was only stating my opinion, and trying to point out the same thing: that just because a "real" Michael channel says that so-and-so is a baby/young/mature soul doesn't make it accurate. All channelings need to be verified by one's own perspective. :) This, IMO, should be a caveat to anyone looking to pay a channel for a reading. If you look like a duck, walk like a duck, quack like a duck, and the channel tells you you're a swan, you shouldn't run off and think what a horribly ugly swan you are. You're probably A DUCK! ;) So read the Michael books like The Personality Puzzle and the Basic Handbook so you know what's a swan and what's a duck. And then make the call yourself. :) Christopher Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:27:35 -0500 (EST)
<< Most Michael channels charge from between $20-40 for a one-page listing
I do an extensive one-page chart (about 20 pieces of information on it) for $40 ($30 each if you order 10+). There's a blank chart form in my book, "The Journey of Your Soul," showing most of the information included. I also do what I call a Michael Reading, in which I thoroughly explain and interpret your chart; that's $120 (including the channeling). You can tell me your profession, hobbies and aspirations, and I can address how they fit with your chart. I can also correlate your chart with that of another person(s). For non-local clients, I do it on cassette and mail it. After listening to it, you can call to discuss it. I also do channeling sessions, during which you can ask any questions you wish. Michael through me is especially strong in shedding light on the deepest causes of the situations we deal with, and helping to bring changes. Sessions also include transformational energy work. You can e-mail me if you'd like a brochure, or download it from my web site. Summerjoy Press is my self-publishing company. By the way, I'm totally revamping my site, with a great deal of new channeled and other material. It should be up in a few days.). Best, Shepherd Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:27:44 -0500 (EST) For what it's worth, these are the overleaves I channeled for Saddam Hussein in Feb., 1990. I feel I'm on shaky ground when it comes to channeling charts on well-known people, because the waters can easily get muddied, for various reasons. Warrior, discarnate scholar e.t., scholar (4/4/2) casting (honorary scholar, in my terms), cadre 23 (in my system)/entity 2, 67% male/33% female energy, 31 frequency, scholar task companion, 5th young manifesting 3rd baby, 7 previous cycles, dominance, power, cynic, moving center (didn't get whether ordinal or cardinal)/emotional part, arrogance, secondary stubbornness, jovial, 81 past lives, life quadrate: power position. Best, Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:37:11 -0500 Thanks for posting this, Shepherd! :) Interesting that you got mode of Power and not Aggression. What are the key differences between the two and why would Saddam be one and not the other? :) Christopher Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:27:50 -0500 (EST)
<< Final-level old souls rarely seek remunerative employment for any period of time. /77
I take that to mean that they try to be self-employed if possible, trying to avoid being tied down to the 9-5, where one is often controlled by the whims of others, which is probably not a natural or happy way of life for many people anyway. Other alternatives include: choosing rich parents or a rich spouse, and a shopping cart with lots of big black plastic bags. Shepherd Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:49:58 -0400 My friends the true measurement of self, spirtual growth comes not from when we look from within but when we stretch ourselves out into the world toward others. It is true that we have many different spirtual levels, or what I like to call our pure selves. However we are no more caught on one level than a caterpillar isdenied never metamorphasising into a butterfly. Steven Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 15:32:57 -0500 (EST) In a message dated 97-11-27 14:52:54 EST, Shepherd writes:
<< Wonder how they support themselves? <G> >>
Big black plastic bags? Hahahahahaha...;-p Well, I'm definitely not on my last life level, so I therefore must be getting a head start on this abhorrance of the 9-5 work grind. Who needs the shackles of the corporate America chain gang anyway?. Liberate yourselves and follow that path of least "persistence" - become so lazy that you stick your nose outside so that the wind can blow it. ;-p Be well and rest properly. :-) Dave Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:34:40 -0500 (EST)
> become so lazy that you stick your nose outside so that the wind can blow it.
That reminds me of something I got in the e-mail, pondering why noses run and feet smell. Shepherd Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 16:42:57 -0500 (EST) In a message dated 97-11-27 15:18:42 EST, Steven writes:
<< My friends the true measurement of self, spirtual growth comes not from
Tell that to the butterfly caught in a web of ignorance while a big, hairy,
perspicacious spider is busy sucking out its life juices. Oooh, what a ghastly
image. ;-p I agree that the game of life involves scribbling as many experiences
onto our John Locke patented blank slate as possible, but I think it's the inner
processing we do that aids in our spiritual growth. It's simply a necessary
component. Dave Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:11:58 -0400 Warning: This is a long post
> > Dick Hein wrote:
Hi Kate and All, I don´t know how others do it but for me I let the universe provide and I
give of myself freely ( no charge) what I get back is always greater than how
much I would have received had I put a set price on my services. Sometimes it is
a load full of really nice hand crafted firniture that mysteriously falls into
my lap just after moving into a really nice old and forgotten mansion that has
unbelievably low rent (less than a studio apt.) or Im offered free accomodations
and meals at a tourist resort that spirit has led me to in among the Mayan
piramids in Guatamala ( while waiting for spirit to tell me why Im here I just
begin doing whatever I feel moved to do and the owner sees me as an asset and
asks me to stay.) Ive also noticed that when I want to get the resources for something that is not in my highest good or that of the whole then I just cant seem to manifest it....and thats quite alright with me . Below is a copy of a response I made to someone´s question on another list that may explain it further.I´ve lived pretty much both ends of the spectrum from living under a tree sleeping in a hamock to 5 star type living and I enjoy the variety of experiences this has given me . Most people consider me rich (I feel I am) but they dont know that I may only have 1 dollar in my possesion and a few nice things but like everything in my life it is always temporary so I enjoy the people and things that cross my path while I have them and release them each time I or they move on.I always give away my possesions when I go and always get even better the next time I need something.(putting a set value on things doesnt serve me and I feel limits what I am able to receive...so I give it to whomever feels most appropriate to release it to at the time) My life hasn´t always been like this .It has taken many years to release the
ingrained belief that "The World Just Doesnt Work That Way Yet !" It was not
easy as society supports my old belief very well...including family and
friends.And I don´t doubt that many of you reading this also believe that the
world hasn´t quite changed yet and that I´m living in a dream world.And thats
perfectly alright with me ...we all have our own realities and finally I´m
enjoying this one Ive worked very hard for. Anyway...I couldn´t resist answering your question from my own experience whether I am a 7th old or not....it hasn´t presented itself for me to know yet what age or level I am."what is yours will come to you" and You always get what you need " So I´ll get it when I get it when I need it. *** This is the post I wrote to my Abundant living list *** Dear Amy and anyone else curious, Amy asks why I move around a lot from country to country. Thats a good question ....one I´ve asked myself and my higher power quite often. Well it seems I made an agreement with my higher power/god(ess)/higher self
to honor and act on guidance given to me(which Ive prayed to have all my life)
I´ve been willing to trust that the universe has my best interests in mind and
will take care of me and lead me to where ever I may best be used as an
instrument of peace and love ,inspiration and healing. What that has to do with moving a lot is that my own inner Knowing tells me to go and so I go or it says stay and I stay.The first few times I needed big pushes and I was scared to pieces but every time I trust and just do it I am blessed miraculously with rewards .Any work I do I give freely (I also receive freely given gifts) and the universe provides me with more than if I had charged a certain fee for my services. I consider my "services" as just me making myself available as a conduit for whatever needs to happen at the time or circumstance and I am open to whatever form that may take.I have played many parts I never imagined I could play by being open to whatever is in my highest good and that of those I am called to interact with. Getting my rational mind to quiet down helps....as many times what I am called to do does not make my rational mind feel comfortable.....its scared ..But later it really does make sense (and my ego and mind likes that) sometimes later is muuuch later and surrender is a good quality to manifest. In a group meditation during one of my many many partings my friends saw me as a glowing ball of light bouncing all over the globe connecting and grounding the Light like weaving.I thought this was a very beautiful description of what I felt was happening to me but had not had it confirmed by so many others. I think also that is why I was called to finally put my hands on a computer
two months ago (I resisted them all my life) I had asked the universe for a rest
from moving for awhile and so far Ive been in this house for 9 months now!(long
for me) The Universe really does provide .....what is yours will come to you......even if its a message saying go here or there ! Soooooo I move a lot because I do...... and it serves..... and I like it! I love you all .....this list is great! in twinkling light, *** "Do Your Dream!" *** "Allow for the Possibilty" *** Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:13:41 -0500 (EST)
<< Hitler: I find Hitler was a much better example of a baby soul, and all the
Just for the record, Yarbro gives Hitler as a young warrior, which my channeling also agrees with (I did also get that he had a discarnate priest e.t.). Here is the complete list of what I got in 1990. As with Hussein's chart and those of other well-known figures, I don't totally trust what I got, but this does make a fair amount of sense to me: Warrior/discarnate priest e.t., 3/4/2 casting (didn't get his entity for some reason), discarnate server task companion, 47/53 m/f energy, 61 frequency, 3rd young manifesting 2nd baby at time of death, 7 previous cycles, power position in life quadrant, dominance, power, idealist, instinctive center/emotional part, arrogance/greed/impatience, mercurial/lunar/plutonian (3% for the latter). I just noticed similarities with the chart I got on Hussein. (Again: Warrior, discarnate scholar e.t., scholar (4/4/2) casting (honorary scholar, in my terms), cadre 23 (in my system)/entity 2, 67% male/33% female energy, 31 frequency, scholar task companion, 5th young manifesting 3rd baby, 7 previous cycles, dominance, power, cynic, moving center (didn't get whether ordinal or cardinal)/emotional part, arrogance, secondary stubbornness, jovial, 81 past lives, life quadrate: power position.) I got both as young warriors but manifesting at baby, which could explain why they have been channeled both ways. I got them both as being in dominance, power and arrogance, plus power quadrate. Sarah Chambers, the first Michael channel, has gotten that one can't be instinctively centered. She disagrees with Yarbro's channeling that feral children are instinctively centered; she thinks they're moving centered, I believe. She also doesn't believe one can be sexually centered, which also disagrees with Yarbro (and what I sometimes get, although I call it being physically [ordinally] centered). Yarbro has described Hitler as having been insane; at least he certainly was at the time of his death. My charts on someone who is not living always carry the caveat: AT THE TIME OF DEATH because not everything stays the same on the chart throughout the course of one's lifetime. Of course, the soul age one is manifesting is an obvious example. Once in a while, the chief feature changes, too. If Hitler had totally gone off the deep end by the time of his death, which he apparently did, I suppose it's possible that his centering could have become de facto in the instinctive, even though it is very unlikely that a soul would set that up as the chosen overleaf before incarnating. I agree that an instinctively centered person would probably look like a wild animal. Best, Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:38:53 -0500 (EST)
<< This, IMO, should be a caveat to anyone looking to pay a channel for a
I basically agree with this, but have some caveats: It takes time to develop an "eye" for what various Michael traits actually look and feel like, and it's rare for someone to acquire that just from reading. Without that, one tends to be in theory and jump to conclusions based on circumstantial evidence. A warrior feels quite different from a priest, although both are intense in their own ways, and both carry intensity in their eyes, albeit of a different flavor. It's the flavor that tells the tale. You can't just look at external behaviors and assume a role. For example, someone who is highly productive and/or blunt is not necessarily a warrior. Numerous other traits on the Michael chart could account for those behaviors, not to mention one's astrology, etc. Then there are those instances when someone is a priest with a discarnate warrior e.t. and warrior (#3) casting--or vice versa: a warrior with a discarnate priest e.t. and priest (#6) casting; good luck on trying to guess or read whether that is a priest or a warrior. It may have to be looked up in the akashic records to be certain. Also, strong imprinting in someone who is particularly susceptible to strong imprinting can throw you off the scent. In general, artisans and scholars are more adaptable and flexible, and sometimes they can be therefore be temporarily or permanently imprinted to look other than they are, but it can happen with any role. Another factor is trauma: I once got a woman as a third-level old server who appeared to her son to be a young warrior. You can't get more opposite than that. Michael's explanation was that she had been extraordinarily traumatized in a couple past lives, and was full of anger and rage, which she made no attempt to hide. She was not a nice person. Her son had the misconception that someone like that had to be a young warrior, but a young warrior can also be quite a nice person. Of course, my channeling could also have been in error, but her son, who is a psychic, could definitely see the wounding that Michael pointed out. It takes serious study to self-validate. Shepherd Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:51:34 -0500 (EST)
<< Thanks for posting this, Shepherd! :)
Power, being cardinal on the expression axis, is more felt: it's a presence that exudes. With power mode people, you get a feeling they know what they're talking about or that they have power--they come on strong. Whatever is inside them is amplified, so they can't hide a bad mood. They can seem very opinionated, and can seem to be more fervent in their opinions than they really are. The negative pole, oppression, gives others the feeling of being beared down upon. Aggression, being cardinal on the action axis, is expanded doing. Aggression mode people create a whirlwind of much doing, often juggling several balls in the air, doing many different things at once (dynamism). The negative pole, belligerance, gives others the feeling of being beaten up. All those balls in the air can fly off the handle, to mix metaphors, and some of them can hit you. Aggression can make someone hyper, especially if there is also a mercurial body type. By the way, at the time of the Gulf War, there was a comedy review playing down the street from me in New York City that used topical, political material. I cherish the title to this day: "Saddam, You're Rocking the Boat!" (A takeoff on the song from "Guys and Dolls," "Sit Down, You're Rocking the Boat.") Shepherd Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:10:51 -0500 Thanks so much for posting this. My son is in Aggression, and your description fits him exactly. He is also moving centered. He has ADHD and oppositional defiance disorder. Kate Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:34:01 -0500 Thanks, Shepherd, for posting this clarification. . :) Christopher Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:12:23 +0000
> Well, I'm definitely not on my last life level, so I therefore must be
I think this is common among old souls in general, and is not limited to 7th old. I am currently working for the establishment, and looking for ways to get out prior to my retirement being vested. I have always been fascinated with self-reliant living, earth-sheltered homes, alternative energy, homesteading, etc. I have a commitment to myself, that if I do finish my last nine years to retirement that I will absolutely never be employed other than for myself again. Another case in point. How many of the Michael channels/authors/speakers that use that as their primary source of income are 7th old? John Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 18:49:21 -0500 (EST)
> Would you be so kind as to tell me the name of a book or where I can find out more
Most of the Michael books go into this subject. I would especially look at the following, which I have ranked roughly in order from simplest to most complex: THE WORLD ACCORDING TO MICHAEL by Joya Pope, Sage Publications, 1988. MICHAEL: THE BASIC TEACHINGS by Aaron Christeaan, JP Van Hulle, and M.C. Clark, Michael Educational Foundation, 1988. THE MICHAEL HANDBOOK by Jose Stevens and Simon Warwick-Smith, Warwick Press, 1990. MESSAGES FROM MICHAEL, MORE MESSAGES FROM MICHAEL by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, Berkley Books, 1983, 1986 THE JOURNEY OF YOUR SOUL: A Channel Explores Channeling and the Michael Teachings by Shepherd Hoodwin, Summerjoy Press, 1995. Best, Shepherd Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 13:30:08 -0500 (EST) I checked with a friend who has connections with the Yarbro group, and she said that Hussein was channeled as being a baby warrior there, and Hitler a young warrior. She didn't know any other of their overleaves. Shepherd Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:17:19 -0500 Thanks for posting that. I think your reasons as to why we're getting the different readings make sense, too. :) Kate Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 15:50:44 -0500 Ed wrote:
> Where do I come from? I grew up believing I should get a very broad
I agree with and share a similar approach to education as you. I didn't grow up believing I should be educated that way, even though my parents were both educators (they saw that as a means out of poverty, not an idealistic choice of career). It was something I evolved into. Not fully until my early 30s.
> I also come from a place of complete inner serenity that both in the
This is an obseration, not in any way a criticism: I've noticed a lot of OS's share your firm belief in this reality. It must be extremely comforting. I wish I could share it. But so far, anyway, it doesn't resonate with me. :) BTW, it's not that I don't believe in ET's--the idea of *not* believing in them seems nonsensical to me. :) (I can, of course, fully articulate why, philosophically this viewpoint doesn't resonate for me--I can always talk on and on about *any* of my opinions as I'm sure you've figured out by now. But this time I'll spare you. <G>)
> I regard it as one of my duties to always radiate a serene confidnce
I fully agree with you that anything we can do to re-program the visualization for the fate of the world to something positive and life-affirming is a very good thing to do. :)
> Anyone who follows the "earth changes" scene can see how year after
Many of the *most* scary don't come true, but I'm sure that the people living through the Trade Center disaster and the Oklahoma disaster would feel a real affinity for many people in other parts of the world who, much more commonly than in the U.S., have lived through incredibly devastating wars the past 50 years (and, of course, before the past 50 years, when the world has gotten particularly fond of "wars of ethnic cleansing"), there were always wars, always mass killing and destruction. That kind of thing, yes, does tend to create fear and panic. :) I think the issue about the "accuracy" of most predictions for the future is that in terms of spiritual predictions, people confuse metaphor and symbol with concrete, actual, "this is what it will look like" events. Also, they don't understand that a lot of the predicted "themes" that astrology and numerology and the like deal with truly *have* come true. I did some of this kind of predictive, theme-based writing with numerology in the 80s, and it can be very accurate, esp. in retrospect, analyzing world events. I love the "upcoming events" in terms of themes of essence, Higher Emotional Center, etc. that many of the Michael channels do, like Kay Kamala and Joya Pope.
> So in my response about Saddam and so on, I was doing all that rather
Oh, good. ;> I think PC tends to be pretty superficial, based in "looking good" rather than having a real sense of conscience or empathy for the pain of others. :)
> So I honestly don't know what his soul age is, but I still strongly
I agree with Christopher's response to this portion of your post: "Of course." I believe this is a given. Ground zero, we have to admit this, in any dialogue. I love the electronic medium, because it was the first place of human interaction, other than among therapists, where people make a point of saying, most of the time, IMO or IMHO, or IJMHO. :) But we do need, I agree, to stress this very vital point over and over. To each other and admit it ourselves. So I can equally say back at you, Ed, of course, that : just because *you* make a very educated, passionate argument doesn't make it "right" either. :) That's important. But it's also a big "so what." I want to hear what you have to say, I want to be influenced by your reasons for what you are proclaiming. I wouldn't be here if I didn't. :) Another wierd thought on this: though theoretically, one could ultimately come up with the an accurate reading of the overleaves of every fragment on the planet, in trying to figure out what they are, we are up against the problem of human subjectivity. Each person's perception is so very different, it is difficult to get any given set of humans to totally agree on *anything*. For example: I imagine if we set a very red apple on a table in front of a hundred people, not every one of them would agree it was red, or even that it was, in fact, an apple. Witnesses of accident scenese are notorious for not agreeing on what they saw. I experienced this myself. Some years ago (when my eyesight was still very sharp <G>), I was called on as a witness to an accident, and I "remembered" it as happening the dead opposite of how it did. The car that pulled off from the side street, I "remembered" as being on the main street and vice versa. This gets me to thinking: it is said that *all* human events are in the Akashic Records, and in a like manor, for a given lifetime, all events that happen to a fragment are in the Instintive Center. So, one could extrapolate, that all events in my Instinctive Center, and yours and everyone else's, are in the Akashic Records. Having said that, I have to ask, "What is an event?" Is it something that is actual or verifiable (if anything can truly be "verified" given the human subjective tendency to misperceive, or perceive differently from person to person, a given concrete object of action)? Or is it perception itself (how we interpret an event), with all its vagaries, that is important? In this regard, there is a whole field of psychology called "perceptual psychology" which asserts that "events are just events, it is what you make of them that is important," IOW, you can never *make* anyone feel anything, or do anything, because due to the individual's personal history and personality makeup--or past lives as well--each individual has their own unique perceptual "filter" which busily interprets every event in a unique way. Hence, the same kind of event that might trigger anger in me, with my particular filter, might trigger laughter, sadness or any other response in other individuals. With the Michael overleaf chart we have a, granted, very sophisticated, system for classification of human personality traits and the ways that a given fragment/person might choose to express those traits. But in the end, one might say, each of us using this classification system has our own history and perception for applying it. Can this also be true of even the Akashic Records, wherein reside the "ultimate, real truth"? Might they contain not just the actual-by-gosh-overleaves on each of us, but a whole series or sets of *perceptions* of those overleaves and what they mean? That is, lists of bogus or spinoff interpretations of each individual's overleaves, twists of them, distortions of them of our own and others perceptions of us that are coming from all that info (much of it highly chaotic) from all of our various Instinctive Centers that is being filed away neatly, right alongside the Real Truth, in the Akashic Records? Could this be yet another reason (excuse? <G>) that channels get different readings, even from the Akashic Records, on a person's overleaves? (Not to mention that many people choose to express, often almost equally, double sets of different overleaves, most especially the chief negative feature.) I find this kind of train of thought to be incredibly mind boggling. Which is why I have *real* trouble with the whole Parallel Universe concept. It adds, for me anyway, yet another dimension of confusion to the whole Michael theory I don't want or need. The reason I was drawn to the Michael Teachings in the first place was its ability to simplify and "elegantly explain" a whole lot of confusing human relationship stuff. The more we get into issues like parallel universes, instinctual-center-stored perceptions (and karmic agreements) and real vs. pseudo or false memories and the like, the less that simplicity can hold.
> I disagree with the idea that he was instinctively centered. Please
I agree with you on this and Shepherd's post in response to this.
> I read a little of Alice Miller's book once, the part where she
She also brought up a fascinating (and somewhat horrifying) point: she felt that if he had had children of his own to abuse, it might have difused some of his violence and lessened his need to commit genocide. Imagine: child abuse may be an innoculation for some psychopaths against mass murder. <shudder> It is true that many mass murderers are extreme loners. I was reading that for many stalkers, the only "intimate" relationship they have ever had is with their victim--they spend all their time obsessing on every detail of the victim's life.
> If he were instinctively centered people would never have been
Good point.
> There is a whole interesting subject beyond our scope of how the
I've read that Hitler consciously contacted Satan. Michael doesn't really go into the "dark side" and the "light side," does he? If so, I haven't heard it. Love, Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 15:52:34 -0500 Shepherd wrote:
> I do an extensive one-page chart (about 20 pieces of information on
Thanks so much for posting what you do for channeling! :)
> I also do channeling sessions, during which you can ask any questions
That's great! :) Kate Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 15:54:21 -0500 Shepherd wrote:
> For what it's worth, these are the overleaves I channeled for Saddam
I think one of the biggest problems is that the ultimate source of verification is supposed to be the person himself, and for many celebrities, this is never, ever going to happen.
> Warrior, discarnate scholar e.t., scholar (4/4/2) casting (honorary
Thanks for posting that! Kate Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 15:56:20 -0500 Shepherd wrote:
> << Final-level old souls rarely seek remunerative employment for any
Well, I'm not 7th level, only 6th, but I've tried living in the woods, support of spouse and have *always* preferred self-employment to any other kind. <G> Maybe the 7th level old is just the extreme intensification of tendencies *all* old souls have in this regard, esp. when they are in a non-old soul society? Kate Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:01:11 -0500 Shepherd wrote:
> I got both as young warriors but manifesting at baby, which could
Good point. When I do a full chart, I do what age they are manifesting at, which I didn't do for Hitler. Sorry about that, all. What is the "power quadrate"? Or which of the books is it in, I'll look it up--don't mean to make you write out something I can look up. I have a complete collection now! (Found the out of print Yarbro's in a lending library online!)
> Sarah Chambers, the first Michael channel, has gotten that one can't That's what I had heard. Thanks for sharing this! :)
> Yarbro has described Hitler as having been insane; at least he certainly
Thanks so much for writing this. It makes much sense to me! Kate Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:07:47 -0500 Shepherd wrote:
> <<This, IMO, should be a caveat to anyone looking to pay a channel for
This makes sense. Which is why I find it pointless, for me at least, to spend a lot of time studying to gain a (for me theoretical rather than actual) ability to "read" what a person's overleaves are just by looking at them. I much prefer *not* looking at a picture of a person when I do a channeling for the same reason.
> A warrior feels quite different from a priest, although both are
Do you use astrology and/or numerology to help you do your Michael readings? I find this does indeed add an interesting wrinkle to the whole overleaves situation.
> Then there are those instances when someone is a priest with a
This was the problem that so many channels, and myself, were having with me. Is she a Sage or a Scholar. I think your explanation in your book on casting finally solved it for me. I am a Scholar with Sage casting and *extremely* strong Sage imprint from my father.
> Also, strong imprinting in someone who is particularly susceptible to
Yes, very much the case with me. Numerologically, my "foundation" number, "K", first letter in my birth name, is 11/2, the way I have manifested it (looking at the rest of my chart) is to be a background or support person, and as such I have been very much of a chameleon--something, as you say, that Scholars excel at.
> In general, artisans and scholars are more adaptable and flexible, and
Yes, I agree, this is especially easy to happen to Scholars.
> Another factor is trauma: I once got a woman as a third-level old
Very good point. Thanks for sharing that. Fascinating!
> It takes serious study to self-validate.
Yes, I agree. It can take years, even for a channel intensely into self-analysis. I can vouch for that. <G> It's a two-fold process of study, not just knowing yourself really well, but knowing the teachings really, really well. Both can take time. :) But, hey, the journey is fun. <G> Kate Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:15:19 -0500 John Rogers wrote:
> I think this is common among old souls in general, and is
Agreed! :)
> I am currently working for the establishment, and looking for ways to
So there's an "IF" about finishing that nine years now? <G>
> Another case in point. How many of the Michael
At least several I know of. Kate Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 23:39:43 -0500 Mixchel, Thanks so much for sharing your post. I found it utterly fascinating. Especially the part about finding yourself in a foreign country with two kids in tow. Are you a parent then? If so, when did you have your children, at what age, and how old are you and they now? I would also love it if any of you Old Souls out there who have had children would share your experiences of what that is like for you. I have stories to tell and I'm sure you do, too. Kate Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 22:47:55 -0400 Kate wrote:
> Mixchel,
*** *** *** *** *** Hi Kate and All, You really want to know all this?.......... I have had 7
pregnancies...(here´s an opportunity to examine judgement stuff...it worked for
me) 1)1978 - (17 yrs old) "first love" - begged the powers that be to make it not
so - that I wasn´t ready but would make up for it later (very early miscarriage)
However I was suicidal afterwards and left my abusing husband (of drugs and me) and had several dream visits by my daughter and an Angel and was shown a past pattern of several lifetimes with suicidal endings and told I was meant to finish up this time. (making it past 29 was the big challenge) "Stay alive", they encouraged. Apparently Id been trying to leave since I got here through accidents, disease, or poisoning before I was 4 or 5. I dont have many memories before age 8. 1983 (22yrs) got pregnant while separated by someone else and was getting back together with my husband and he refused to accept someone elses baby and I wasn´t ready to be a single parent and couldnt bear having a child whos father-figure resented him so I did what I thought Id never do..........had an abortion....and I released more judgements. I asked the baby to come back when the father agreed. 1985 (24 yrs) After lots of emotional healing on my core beliefs around chilbirth and parenting I had a wonderful, painless, 3 hour homebirth with a midwife. On Easter day my daughter Cassidy came back like she said she would. Something else interesting was the baby I had aborted asked to come in with my daughter about a month before she was born...I recognised the energy as the same one I aborted....I said terrific I always wanted to have twins but he would have to get the ok from his dad too. Somehow I knew this was important for this soul. I shared the experience with his dad and when he learned it was the same baby as the one I got pregnant by another man he rejected him again...he knew the one baby I was carrying was his. And they bonded immediately while only her head was out she turned and looked calmly into his eyes with such love. She was my "velcro" high need, strong-willed baby that insisted on being physically connected to me for the first two yrs of her life...she finally gave up the breast to let her brother get his. She insisted he was her baby and had to be ther for his birth.......making her own labor noises during transition and telling her doll all about it.....she was 2 and a half! 1987 (26yrs) A week before I got pregnant my son came to me to ask to come in
again (by this time he had tried many times....my stillbirth experience showed 2
placentas grown together being larger than the baby....one baby had
disappeared...my son...the empathic link was with his energy...I recognised this
after he was finally born) I was happy and reminded him that his dad and I had
to come together at least sexually and for him to talk to his dad. I saw a
psychic aquaintance the next day and he said ,"Oh you´re pregnant again" and I
said "almost, give me a week or two and I will be physically too." Beau was also
born at home on a Sunday after a short but intense labor.....the unusually short
cord was wrapped around his foot being held back and pushed forward at the same
time....kinda symbolic actually. Well Ive written a lot (more than Id intended ) and Ive got two more wonderful sons to introduce to you if youre still interested (for another day) I tend to get real personal real fast......Im not superficial at all.....intensity and depth are good descriptive words for my experiences of my life. And Thanks Kate for asking.........Id like to hear some of your stories and anyone elses too .......old or young or whatever. lots a love,
M´Ixchel Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 00:04:08 -0800 This, IMO, is a most interesting thread. And I don't pretend to be in the same league as the primary posters (my self-dep not withstanding!). But I do have a couple of comments...
| Ed wrote:
Two comments here - 1. In _Cosmic Journey_ Courtney Brown states (recalling now from having read the book almost a year ago) that his contacts with ETs through remote viewing (RV) provided him the knowledge that they will not interfere with the activities of humans unless asked. They will not "rescue" us from our destiny, as we are a free-will species. If there is an exception to this, I don't recall seeing it mentioned. 2. According to information from Michael obtained in group channel sessions, this planet has been destroyed by atomic means in some parallels. And in others, atomic energy was never developed.
| > Anyone who follows the "earth changes" scene can see how year after
On this parallel...
| > So in my response about Saddam and so on, I was doing all that rather
Ah-yup. :^)
| Another wierd thought on this: though theoretically, one could
Are you saying that human subjectivity has =that= much of an influence on channeled information?
| For example: I imagine if we set a very red apple on a table in front of
I have heard of this. I wonder if maybe the stress of the moment causes one to view alternate parallels during the time of the stress.
| This gets me to thinking: it is said that *all* human events are in the
Not exactly. Again, recalling from memory without going back to research the info, partly in _Journey_ and partly from channel sessions. There are two different things - akashic records and the akashic plane. Each fragment (and each hierarchical grouping of fragments?) has their own akashic records. For fragments, they are in the instinctive center. The akashic plane consists of distillation of those akashic records, retaining only the lessons learned. Scholars are the ones who do the distillation, in a manner I'm unaware of. It's done at the time of a particular reintegration, but I don't recall the details.
| Having said that, I have to ask, "What is an event?" Is it something
Since the record being made is for a particular fragment, it would make little sense for it to be of something the fragment did not perceive. Whether the record also contains what actually happened, if different from what was perceived (can there be such a thing?), is a good question.
| In this regard, there is a whole field of psychology called "perceptual
IOW, perception is everything.
| With the Michael overleaf chart we have a, granted, very sophisticated,
As with everything else we do.
| Can this also be true of even the Akashic Records, wherein reside the
I think the explanation above clears a lot of this up. Each individual's own records will contain, I think, their own perceptions and all their variations, because that is their history. Their own overleaves, of course, are part of who they are for the life. But their perceptions of those overleaves are experiences, and they will go into their records.
| Could this be yet another reason (excuse?
As I understand it, it takes quite a bit of energy to research the akashic records on the akashic plane. I think it's probably the case that most channels provide overleaves from Michael's reading of the person's aura and whatever else they can see, that indicate what is in the instinctive center.
| (Not to mention that many people choose to express, often almost
This undoubtedly comes into play.
| I find this kind of train of thought to be incredibly mind boggling.
It =is= an added dimension, and can be confusing. But it is very real. Within the last few months I have had 3 convincing demonstrations of parallels, one just a couple of days ago. Very interesting, actually.
| The reason I was drawn to the Michael Teachings in the first place was
As I am sure most of us are aware, in the early Yarbro books there was no mention of parallel universes, concurrent incarnations, or even major cycles (although these were hinted at). The Michael teachings, and indeed all teachings to a degree, are merely models of only a small part of a vast reality. We can choose to pursue those teachings as far as we wish, but the vastness of reality will always be there.
| > There is a whole interesting subject beyond our scope of how the
Neither have they done much WRT ET species and their activities. I guess the closest thing Michael has done WRT "dark side" and "light side" is the basic idea of love- or fear-based actions, positive/negative poles, and the Chief Negative Feature (CNF). Regards, Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:02:53 -0800
> | In this regard, there is a whole field of psychology called "perceptual
There is something about this that really bothers me. I mean, intellectually, I would agree, it makes sense, but on other levels, it lacks something.... It's like the nice, pat, simplistic little new-age saying, "You create your own reality," that people use to not only explain away tragic events in people's lives, but also to then not take responsibility for their own part in it--lots of blame and judgement there! It feels very uncompassionate and I can't believe it is the whole truth. I do not believe I know the whole truth either, but I have some additions. This is what I would add to what Kate and Dick said above: Remember in one of the "Messages from Michael" books, where Michael describes different kinds of karma and how we create it, and one of them was called, "mind-f***" where you mess with someone's mind and that makes some kind of karma? Imposing one's will over another without their consent creates karma. Brainwashing would be an extreme example. Therefore, by your actions or words, you *can* and *do* make others feel or do certain things they otherwise would not have. And often times the karma itself is still about what Dick said: perception. Even so, you can be totally oblivious to how an action or imposition over others, and in that, there is a lesson for both sides. Consciously or unconsciously, you can still use your power to make some people do or feel something. You need to be a very very perceptive and aware person, IMO, to avoid affecting others with your "stuff." I probably have Michael's saying, "All is chosen" tatooed on my brain by now, but I always remember that it doesn't translate to, "All is chosen by me." So it goes--we all are affected by the choices of others, as well as our own choices. Blessings, Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 05:41:22 +0900 (JST) At 19:50 30/11/1997 -0000, Lori Tostado wrote:
> in that, there is a lesson for both sides. Consciously or
Lori, Thanks for this posting. I will be turning 52 in a few weeks (sure, one's life age does not matter much, but it does to some extent) and I have learnt a lot in those lines. This is a bitter example. I live in Japan. I few yers ago I was very happy to find a particular teacher who came here regularly and when I met this teacher for the weekend course I told enthusiastically how, synchronistically, I had made it to this person's demonstation in the first place. I was taken aback by her remark, 'I don't care.' I first thought it was me being childish telling a teacher how happy I was to meet someone who was teaching what I had been looking for... I thought I was creating this unloving experience... I tried again and again to prove myself the guilty part and got so disappointed to the point where I decided: this person is not a spiritual teacher, this person is teaching a spiritual technique for money. I have met so meny teachers of the same technique that have not placed money in the first place. Obviously, money is or is not an issue... In the example I am giving, the teacher in question was affecting others with their own stuff. I have learnt how to elect a teacher as one my teachers. What has been wonderful in the Michael teaching people is that money does not come first, but money follows. Think of the medical profession. A hospital where you work as a medical doctor geta a patient that is dyiig... No insurance... No family... No anything... The reception person comes to you with this case... The hsopital has this regulation that only allows insured or paying patients to be accepted. What do you do? I am deliberately keeping the relevant part of your message, and the answer to me would be to challenge the system and try to save the patient, in spite of his or my own "stuff". This is a common scenario in many places of the world. Your posting invokes compassion... Tough question, I'm afraid. Blessings, Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 00:58:22 -0500 Jose, I enjoyed your thoughtful, insightful post. Thanks! Kate Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:37:29 -0500 (EST) Kate wrote
<< Maybe the 7th level old is just the extreme
I agree. And it can apply to unconventional mature souls, too, and artists of any soul age, that there is a desire to avoid a rigid 9-5 life.
<< What is the "power quadrate"? Or which of the books is it in, I'll look
This is the one item on my chart I don't cover in my book; it might be in one of Jose Stevens', but I think with a little different slant. I originally heard about it from JP Van Hulle's channeling. I had dropped it from my chart because I didn't think it was that important, but restored it after my books came out because some scholar clients kept asking for it. It's simple: in any group, there are four basic functions, and we specialize in one in each lifetime, although we can do the others also: Love position initiates. "Let's go to a movie!" for example. Knowledge position provides information to the group (scholars don't always do this within groups). "I know where a good movie is playing and how to get there." Power position powers the group to take action. "C'mon everyone, let's get in the car." Support position mediates and helps: "I'll get popcorn." For the record, the word "quadrant" refers only to the quarter, or the part. The word "quadrate," found in Yarbro, refers to a whole that contains four parts. JP and Jose have used these same four terms, I believe, to refer to the positions in groupings of four specific people who have agreed to work together over several lifetimes on a project. It can be expanded: a fifth person, for example, would have the "eccentric" position. I think the sixth person occupies the "compassion" position, and so on, until you get the 12 positions of the support circle. I've never gotten material about this in my channeling--it just doesn't seem to come up for me. Barbara, perhaps you can clarify and expand on this.
<< I much prefer *not* looking at a picture of a person when I do
I find it fun and educational to look at someone's picture and try to guess his role before channeling his chart. Over time, I've learned to recognize a sage's smile, a priest's eyes, a scholar's neutral look, etc. I'm often wrong, but I'm usually I'm in the ballpark. If I guess king, it's usually at least a scholar with a discarnate king essence twin bleeding through, for example. In other words, I usually pick up the energies, but not necessarily where they go on the chart. This allows me to use the teachings without always going to Michael to get a chart, although if it's an important person in my life, I'll generally do a chart eventually. An especially good way to learn the teachings is to observe a lot of people whose overleaves have been well validated. For example, after I'd been around a bunch of sages, I began to notice the sort of crooked, mischievous smile many of us share in common, and now when I see it in someone new, I guess sage, and look for other clues. Unless someone has a complicated chart, with a lot of opposite things going on, this works pretty well.
<< Do you use astrology and/or numerology to help you do your Michael
No. I'm not an astrologer, but I have several clients who are, and they find parallels and correlations, most directly with body types. A friend knows an astrologer who gives out Michael charts solely based on people's birth charts. She thinks he's pretty accurate, but I would use that more as a validation than as a source. A combined Michael/astrology/numerology reading would be a very complete life reading. [My apologies to Ed who thinks numerology is nonsense. My own take is that everything has a vibration that affects us, including our names. Maybe numerology translates them into a meaningful form.]
<< > It takes serious study to self-validate.
I totally agree. That's a very important point that is often overlooked. Best, Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:35:02 -0800 Lori, I know what you're sensing. I feel it too, that we live in one sea of energy and are touched by everything that happens in that sea to a greater or lesser extent and yet it's also true that we choose our perceptions, responses and the creation of our own world within that sea of energy. When it goes to the extreme of saying nothing anyone else does matters to anyone else's ability to be what they want in their own world, there's a loss of compassion simultaneous with an affirmation of our ability to exist and radiate our own beingness within any situation. There's truth in both. But it's not an excuse to not care how we treat one another or to not recognize how our choices, words, actions and being influence our own lives and ripple out and touch so many others. I think about this often. What is truly loving? What things are and aren't our responsibility? I do think the final responsibility for our choices rests in our own hands. And when that choice is taken away by situations or actions of others, events will happen to address that infringement and imbalance until there's a greater appreciation, respect and honor of others and ourselves. But also there are many times, people can simply choose differently and don't-- to be out of a situation that isn't healthy in some way. That can be acknowledged too. So much that's out of balance we willingly dance with, just because we might not yet know a better way. It may not make it the fault of the dancing partner that we're willing to do the dance.... Brin Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 15:09:37 -0800 To no one in particular...just an addition that also comes to mind... Sometimes I get the sense that there's a feeling of karma being like some mac truck bearing down on us that we have little control over. But if you see the truck, you _can_ step out of the way. We don't have to be like deer, night-blinded, and just let it hit us. Once you see the truck, there's usually a range of choices possible and the more conscious we become, the more choices open up to us.... Just needed to add that in with my last post. That karma is not an excuse for us to be irresponsible in our lives and with each other. Unless we want to wade in it forever. As soon as we see another choice, we _can_ go for it. Yes, sometimes it will take a while to learn the rest of what it takes to make something possible. Yes, sometimes learning seems and is very gradual. Other times there will be insights and we can leap into new ways of being. Best to all, Brin Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 15:50:55 -0800 Jose Caldeira wrote:
> Lori,
Hi Jose! I do think your physical age makes a difference in many cases--you've got a lot of direct life-experiences to share, and the wisdom that comes from that. For example, back when the discussion thread was all about the 4th internal monad--I didn't post anything about that, because I haven't been there yet in this life, and other people on the list were much better equipped to handle that subject, all those who have been through it. :^) (I'm 28.)
> This is a bitter example. I live in Japan. I few yers
Wow, that must have made you feel really humiliated and inadequate. How ingratiating for her to say that to you. At least she could have said, "Well, I'm glad you made it!" because, no matter how self-centered she might have been, undoubtedly somewhere within her she was glad you were there, even if it was just as a paying customer to her. Business people who don't appreciate their customers lose them. I really like to express my appreciation to my spiritual teachers too, like you! It would hurt me too if they wouldn't accept it.
> I first thought it was me being childish telling a teacher how happy I was
Yes, it's usually pretty clear when you meet the teachers, whether or not they really care about the people they are dealing with. Still, they've got to work to live too--but like you, I'm wary of the ones who seem to think they aren't getting paid to care.... It is often that in-person meeting that shifts your perception of who you thought they were and who they really are. Reminds me of this quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson: "What you are speaks so loudly, I cannot hear what you say." This is one that I think about often. Is who we are defined by what we do? Society would say yes, but, I would say no..... But what we do or say often speaks multitudes about who we are, doesn't it?
> In the example I am giving, the teacher in question was affecting others
I'm sorry--I don't understand your last sentence above--can you explain further?
> What has been wonderful in the Michael teaching people is that money does
Well, with most of them anyway.... :^)
> Think of the medical profession. A hospital where you work as a medical
Ironic, isn't it? It still blows my mind the disparity between the "haves" and the "have-nots" of this world.... Still, each of us can make a difference, no matter how small.
> I am deliberately keeping the relevant part of your message, and the answer
Yes, I agree. My heart to yours, Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:21:35 -0800 Thanks Brin for those pearls of wisdom. I think that if we're here in the physical, then we've opted into the big game. Whether or not we play the smaller games, like the blame game, the judgement game, the competition game, is up to us. Although it's often hard to identify all those limiting core beliefs about ourselves and how life is, that make those littler games show up in our lives. But when we do change our limiting beliefs, that changes our whole reality. Steve Cocconi told me this Michael quote, "Everyone is responsible, but no
one is to blame." (Ok, ok, that's my last quote for today! I promise! Please
refrain from throwing flaming perishable projectiles!) ;-) Anyway--there is another choice! You can choose to hold onto your stuff and live a miserable life, or you can choose to put it behind you. Eventually, we let go of everything--the choice is whether it's now, or later. The compassion comes in when we care enough about ourselves and other people to forgive and move on, and help each other do the same. Hugs, cuz we never get enough, :^) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:51:55 -0800 Peter wrote:
> Lori & Eileen,
Hi Peter, you make some good points!
> Lori makes the point that we can affect other people's emotions and thoughts
Well, I'd say you do need to look at the results in addition to the intention. I think you need to be responsible to at least clarify to the person who is hurt that it wasn't your intention to do so. Does this mean you're taking their blame they are putting on you? It could be perceived that way, in this victim/victimizer way, but sure, you could choose something different--to just be responsible for your words, and let them know your intention, where you're coming from. After that, well, obviously they've got some issues you triggered and that's their stuff. Words are so easy to misinterpret....
> I think that one of the major problems with language is the way that it is
I don't know if it's just that simple though. I guess I'm just more interested in finding what works. Results show you what works and what doesn't. When people start saying the words always, never, all, nothing, and all those extremes, I get skeptical. There is such a large gray area between these black and white analogies.... Sometimes, I feel like I'm treading a very thin line, and it's hard to balance, but when I find what works in a given situation, the line becomes more like a stable road--going a bit to the left or a bit to the right doesn't make you fall off. I'm looking for harmony in life.
> Someone could tell me that I will never be successfull
Yes, as their intention could even be to ruin our lives, and the result could be that we are extremely happy and successful, in spite of or because of it. I'm still not fully convinced that perception is *everything*, although it is a very important, major factor.
> As Michael has said, "all is choice". Lori has said that it's not always our
Yep, we're all responsible. Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:47:47 -0400 Hi all, Peter, This was one of the best things I learned early on that has changed my
"victim" thinking into realising my own power. It was at a place called the
Living Love College in Oregan started by Ken Keyes Jr. I was 21 and the youngest
in these workshops and felt very fortunate to have gotten it so young. I just came across something Lori wrote (Michael ) called The Poles of the
Emotions showing us how we can change our attitude to get out of the
emotional-center trap. When I discovered that I had a choice to how (for example) I experienced my
first husband having a fling to "get back at me" I was able to choose to feel
compassion for him (and her) and see his underlining positive intention instead
of jelousy, hurt, rage etc. which are feelings I was expected and previuosly
imprinted to feel. I used my power of choice to create a much more loving
experience instead of the obvious one. My husband thought I was a real
luney-tune at that point and still does(my X that is) In my house now I correct statements that slip out ...like "he made me feel..." or "I made him feel..." "It made me feel..."instead hearing myself say "I made myself feel so angry when ...." helps me see that the feeling part is my responsibilty. My kids are still little and Im happy that even the 4yr old feels in charge of his own experience. And he´s a very emotionally passionate guy and can feel the full range of emotions all in the same breath! I too believe that we affect the whole and that intention is important.I used to make myself really upset when trying to make decisions....there are seems to be someone who feels hurt by my actions,words,inaction etc..I chose to feel pain over this until I realised that I can only take responsibility for myself and chose what feels true to me. This can be especially challenging in a marriage and with children. I trust that my children agreed before they were born that I would make decisions based on what felt true to me at the time. How do I know whats best for anyone else? I don´t... This has led to a transformation in my 2nd marriage as well.....at one point instead of divorcing because traditional marraige didn´t accomodate an accentric old soul like me we just redefined our marriage. It goes something like this .....My committment is to my own truth.I love ,honor, cherish and obey my own spiritual path and if our paths should go in different directions then I go with love (or release him with love) and know that we always get what we need and if our paths need to cross again then great if not then its purpose was served and completed. This gets more involved when there are children involved and for me there are. Two fathers, two children with each.There have been several times when our paths parted to seek our own paths and a few times when we didnt know when we´d ever see each other again. These partings have most often been very centered and easy...once I needed my "path" to give me a big push...ok,several times. But it works for us and we are both free to do whatever we need to honor whats calling us. For example,my husband just left for Peru tonight to pursue his dream. The intention this time is that he will return in about a week....so this could possibly be a very short physical absence.....and who knows! I left for another country once with the intention of 2 yrs and it was complete in 2mos. Believe it or not the kids are well-adjusted to this as they´ve never known it to be otherwise.They are heathy in body,mind,and spirit as far as I can percieve.Today we called in Tobias (the 4yr old) to remind him that his daddy was leaving in 10 min. (its not real for him until it is in his present moment) and he immediately sobbed and kissed his daddy all over his face and cried "I´m gonna miss you so so so so much" and Kevin said thats ok, I´m gonna miss you too, so so so so much.And Toby cried for about 1 min. really hard and was done. Dad left and life goes on ........besides it was fun when he called 20 min.later on his cell phone to make sure the boys were alright. They are very sure that he will be back when he gets back. Ahh yes ..perception is what started me chattering....happy to have been able to share some of mine with you all tonight.Thanks for listening! Doing my dream.......allowing for the possibilty....... Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:48:17 -0800 Hi again everyone, I just got this in the mail recently and it seemed to speak to our current discussion so I thought I'd throw it out for everyone's consideration. It comes from a Healing Heart Productions newsletter. And it's called the 5 Points of Power.... 1. Pay Attention. Be conscious and awake about what's going on around you. When you're trapped (unconscious) in your history, doing things in the same old way, you miss the opportunities available to you. 2. Keep Your Agreements. One of the causes of an enormous amount of suffering is the way we break agreements. The costs are trust, self-esteem, dignity, relationships, and success. Don't make them if you're not going to keep them. 3. Be Accountable. What you are _accountable_ for is your own experience; no one else can be. We are _not_ responsible for what other people say or do, but we are accountable for how we set things up. Notice that every time your life was screwed up, you were present. 4. Speak the Truth. Not part of it, all of it. Every time you speak the truth about what's going on with you, a little more peacefulness drops into your life..."and the truth shall set you free". 5. Ask for What You Want. If you don't ask, you'll never receive. No! does not mean that people reject you. They are simply declining your request. ________ These seemed like good food for thought. I can't say I nearly have these all down and live them in my life....but they seem good things to shoot for. And they seem to have some balance of responsibility in terms of what we've been discussing today. Best to all, Brin Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 00:06:26 -0500 Mixchel, Thanks so much for the first installation of your story. I'd love to hear the rest. I've been told that as Old Souls we come in with many, many potential agreements to be both lovers and parents. Many fragments want to connect with us. I think this, too, can make for a chaotic life. After my second child was born in 1988, I told the universe and any fragments hanging around, that this was it for me. No more children. I refused to have sex until I got my tubes tied (both my kids, like yours were home births). I also told anyone in the universe listening in that might try and sneak in through me that I wasn't into "miracle babies" that come to women with tubal ligations and "just have to live because God sent them." (I have seen this trick pulled a *lot* in the past few decades. Esp. on Old Souls.) I said that I was perfectly willing and ready to have an abortion if this trick was pulled on me. It is my strong perception that if you give the universe an *inch* right now and you are of childbearing age and an Old Soul, you will end up pregnant. You can't believe the two-year hard-sell job that was done on me by the fragment that is now my son and a coterie of his warrior cronies to convince me to have him. The whole time they focused on movies of his *adult* life. Not one glimpse was given of his childhood, and, naive fool that I was, I never thought to ask. Let alone ask about the damn pregnancy. Live and learn. I've had three miscarriages and two pregnancies, and, frankly, I know for sure I will be a man next lifetime, just as I have been most of my lifetimes. This female karma, to me at least, if for the birds! :} I much prefer the male parenting role. The traditional female role is anathema to me. I can be very affectionate and nurturing, but I have ZERO Server about me at all, other than some indirect stuff inherited through some server females in my distant lineage and, of course, the eternal cultural imprint in most times and places that all females *should* be servers (just as most cultures imprint all the males with Warrior energy). I have no patience with fragments who have a passive-aggressive Victim mentality. I cannot tolerate for a second seeing myself as a "victim of fate," and it really brings me down being around fragments who cultivate this vision of reality. I feel like my skin is crawling being around it. There is so much darkness and voracious energy sucking going on in their presence. Unfortunately, my children's father and my daughter have a huge, heavy dose of this kind of energy, and to a lesser degree my son has as well. I've had to do some incredible work to get the universe to pull in the resources needed to not get sucked into perpetuating that attitude, at my expense and to no purpose but destruction. I've spent so many lifetimes as a celibate, itinerant priest, that this lifetime as a fecund mother has been totally weird. I normally have the figure of a pre-pubescent girl, and when I turned into this earth-goddess with huge breasts and belly during my pregnancies, I felt like I was in someone else's body. Very, very disorienting. My "all the pain you can gain and still be normal" pregnancies and my 24-hour first labor and 40-hour second labor were the ultimate Growth experience of "I'm going to learn all there is to know about pregnancy and labor in one fell swoop." I fought very hard to sidestep the karma of having my belly cut open for a C-section, very common in women of my age, 34 for first pregnancy, 37 for second, with long labors in this country. This was my reason for home birth. I did avoid it C-section, but ended up fulfilling the inevitable karma of gut slicing by having my gallbladder out in 1991. Some things you just have to go through, I guess. I have two kids with ADHD, and that has been an incredibly painful karma for a Scholar who needs hours and hours of alone down-time a day. More later, if desired. Kate Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 00:18:03 -0500 Dick Hein wrote:
> 1. In _Cosmic Journey_ Courtney Brown states (recalling now from
Dick, this is, in a nutshell, my personal take on it. We are free-will. There will be no unasked for interference. OTOH, though, there are a heck of a lot of fragments frantically petitioning any ET who will listen for help, so maybe enough *have* asked for help to warrant the kind of "interference" that Ed is talking about?
> 2. According to information from Michael obtained in group channel
I've heard that, too. Insofar as I can manage to wrap my brain around parallel universe theory, this makes sense to me.
> | > Anyone who follows the "earth changes" scene can see how year after
I agree, and it's why, even though I have trouble understanding parallel universe theory, I *hope* that it is true and I have a very strong request in to stay in the parallel that goes in the direction of life and hope and renewal and healing.
> | > So in my response about Saddam and so on, I was doing all that rather
Ah, another enemy of PC. <G> > Are you saying that human subjectivity has =that= much of an influence> on channeled information?
I don't know how much. It is interesting to me to brainstorm about possibilities, though. <G>
> | that it was, in fact, an apple. Witnesses of accident scenese are
That's an interesting possible explanation!
> | This gets me to thinking: it is said that *all* human events are in the
Interesting. I'd like to hear more on this. I'm still digesting various parts of Journey but haven't gotten to that one. Very dense and wonderful. :)
> | Having said that, I have to ask, "What is an event?" Is it something
Yes, that's what I'm thinking.
> | In this regard, there is a whole field of psychology called "perceptual
Yes, and it seems that this is what would be in the Akashic records. A distillation of what was learned would imply *perception* not raw data, that is, raw, actual events in space-time.
> | With the Michael overleaf chart we have a, granted, very sophisticated,
Yes! :)
> | Can this also be true of even the Akashic Records, wherein reside the
Nice thoughts. :)
> | Could this be yet another reason (excuse?
I think you're right. A lot *do* read this way. My perception is that when I call on Michael to help me read the Akashic Records, I myself don't have to expend the energy to do it. Michael does the work.
> | (Not to mention that many people choose to express, often almost
Yes, can be confusing.
> | I find this kind of train of thought to be incredibly mind boggling.
I'd love to hear about it, if it isn't too time consuming to explain. :)
> | The reason I was drawn to the Michael Teachings in the first place was
Yes, good point. :)
> | I've read that Hitler consciously contacted Satan. Michael doesn't
What is "WRT"? Great post, Dick--thanks so much! Kate Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 00:56:29 -0500 Lori Tostado wrote:
> There is something about this that really bothers me. I mean,
Lori, I agree! :) I *detest* a cold, distancing statement of "you caused it" as well. Yes, this "I" who makes karmic choices is a very confusing thing. The word "I" used this way, to me, is like the word "love" in English. Love, one word, is used to cover a multitide of different kinds of affectionate relationship. In a like manner, "I" (the "me" who chooses things) is used in newage-speak to cover a multitude of "I-nesses" or "menesses." There is the small-self "I" that goes through stages of development in a given lifetime up to, and hopefully, including its "earned" or "actual" soul age. Then there is the "me" that is my Essence, who is, supposedly, running the show (but, one would assume, in consultation with my other affiliations on the spiritual plane, my cadences, Entity, Cadre and Tao). I think many times that the "I" that is me, the fragment who is acting out a specific set of overleaves this lifetime, is about as aware of "choosing" my life karmas as my big toe is the reasons why it finds itself sometimes stuffed it into an uncomfortable pair of shoes. The toe knows it is cramped and hurting, but doesn't experience the how and why of choosing the damn shoes. <G> Another illustration of this: I remember when I was pregnant and having a hellish time of it, a single friend (whom I figured out later very much wanted to be married and have kids, poor deluded thing <G>, and was jealous) commented very coldly and callously, "What are you complaining about? It was you who wanted to have children!" This brings up for me another aspect of choice: even in situations where it is completely obvious, even to our most limited, pea-brain, negative-poles-of-the-overleaves consciousness that we or *I* did in fact choose this situation (everything from buying a car that turns out to be a lemon, to marrying our dream person who turns out to be a jerk, to moving into a wonderful apartment that has loud, screaming neighbors), did we in fact, consciously, choose all the ramifications of what could spin out from that choice? For example: When I start guilt-tripping myself for my choice of my kids' father, an extremely dysfunctional 3rd level Old Soul Scholar, I have to stop and ask myself, how "bad," truly, was the decision the 30-year-old me made back in 1982 to marry this guy? Based on the person I was at the time, and my then limited knowledge and education, and my limited idea of the "ideal" man (he won't beat me like my dad or scream at me, he will value education, be cosmopolitan, be into world saving and very spiritual), my ex met all my criteria in spades. Unfortunately, I wasn't omnicient, and as I "chose" that relationship, I had no idea, whatsoever, of the damage that an Old Soul in victim consciousness who chooses to live constantly in passive-aggressive mode could do. At that time, I was only thoroughly versed in the damage that fragments bent on aggressive-aggressive mode (violence) could do. And my ex played out as a pretty good choice up to and until the birth of our second child. After that, his ability to cope was completely overtaxed, and he was alternating between barely treading water as a parent and often drowning. How could my 30-year-old self have seen that coming? No way it could, consciously. According to the Michael Teachings, of course, my Instinctive Center was programmed to "recognize" this fragment and launch me on this campaign of pain I called a marriage. But as for my fragment-consciousness self, when I married my ex, I had no idea that he was clinically depressed and had been most all his life, that he had ADD, and that he is not a person who seems to respond to virtually any healing modality for these and other problems he has (like low self-esteem and self-confidence) that currently exists on the planet (from counseling to communication training, to job skills training, to homeopathy, acupuncture, massage, chiropracty, herbs, etc., etc.). One might ultimately conclude, as I did, that he has a pre-programmed Instinctual Center "choice" to be likely to be so very emotionally damaged early on this incarnation (in very early childhood) that no matter what the later adult interventions, he would remain terribly wounded. And dysfunctional as a result in all his relationhips. (The same was true with my ET, btw, who came from an incest family.) Once this realization was arrived at, at that point there was a new choice for me: sign on for a third seven-year contract with him for continuing our marriage monad, or cut the cords. I chose the latter, because I am in Growth and living with a Martyr tears me to shreds. But did I consciously "choose" the pain of that marriage, the eternal frustration of rolling the same rock up the same hill for almost 13 yaars of living with him was for me? (The corrolary of a "yes" to this statement is that I "deserved" this pain for being stupid.) The compassionate and logical answer, for me is: How could I have? How or why would anyone (at a fragment level) have the imagination, at the beginning of almost any relationship (unless it is something very, very obvious, like a brutal alcoholic) as to how far and in what direction it might spin off? Especially when you are adding a complete unknown quantity to the equation like children? IM experience, we are different people, different parts of us shine forth, in each relationship we are in. So a family can very quickly get incredibly complex. And therefore often unpredictable (though, of course, families do seek to entrench members in predictable "roles" or assigned ways of being). Any group situation can do that. IMO, even if you are omnicient, as the Diety (however you see that) supposedly is, since humans have free-will, there is no way to make exact predictions of group outcomes. You can only deal in probabilities, which are constantly shifting. What I've come to believe is true, and this is my perception of what the Michael Teachings present about karma (and as such may not agree with others' perception): is that each of us has chosen particular themes. We haven't mapped out specifics like a particular miscarriage, or that a specific friend will dump us on a specific day in a particular way. Or that we will marry a One and Only True Love. My understanding is that situations and even people can be quite fungible in the Theme-fulfillment department. But coming back to coldness vs. compassion. I think that people who have no empathy to give (for whatever reason, naturally cold or just burned out) will use any excuse to push another away. And the old, "you chose it" (so fry in hell and leave me out of it, jerk) sentimentalilty is just an excuse to "feel good" about adding insult to the injury a human in pain next to us is suffering. Personally, I try to avoid like the plague these days people who are what I call "empty buckets." They batter you and call it being "helpful." Most of my blood relations are like that and many of the people over the years I have called "friends." Unfortunately, I had a theme of attracting people like that. When I finally woke up enough to see that, in the midst of my 4th monad, I had more room to consciously "choose" not to do that schtick anymore. Another issue of choice: the more experience and wisdom we gain in life, the more choices that open up to us, the more freedom.
> This is what I would add to what Kate and Dick said above:
This is very important to remember. Thanks for bringing it up. There are always multiple sides to an issue. While on one level of reality, it is true that you can't *make* anyone do anything, yes, it is obviously very true that people vary, greatly, in the degree to which they are imprintable by others' desires, that is, the degree to which they can be influenced. I think Baby Souls are hard wired to crave being influenced and that Young Souls are hard wired to *not* be influenced in many ways. <G> You can manipulate BS's by appealing to duty to a shared ideology. You can manipulate a YS by convincing him or her that doing what is in your best interests (or that of the group or the world) is in the YS's best interest. You can motivate a MS to do what you want by appealing to the heart and sentiment. You can motivate an OS by appealing to some sort of spiritual perspective.(The trick is finding a shared esoteric language to talk in. <G>) I think humans have two competing drives, the need for affiliation/relationship and the need for freedom, to "do our own thing." As these two opposite and often each-other-extinuishing drives battle it out, we are constantly trying to influence (aka manipulate or "educate" <G>) other people to assist us in achieving our desires. Just as others are always trying to get us to go along with their agendas. It is a system that guarantees that we all keep constantly interacting, garnering karma and learning new stuff. <G>
> I probably have Michael's saying, "All is chosen" tatooed on my brain
Yes, yes. Couldn't agree more. :) Love,
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