Related Articles Spiritweb Michael

Spiritweb Michael List
1998 - Week 5


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THE POSTS:

 

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 18:11:38 -0800
Subject: Re: roles

  Ted,     You hit on things I have been thinking about a lot. It is uncanny. I have had the feeling that I would like to guide from the astral plane but did not know I was already doing it! I keep asking myself what the heck am I doing here? I swear I take naps sometimes just to go astral and to do something fun. The physical plane seems to bog me down with tasks that seem time wasting (ie, a job). Also, I keep worrying that I should have already cycled off. Most of my entity has cycled off or so I have been told. My wife is in my entity. This is her last lifetime. I worry I am being left behind sometimes and my entity will get to the mental plane while I am just going astral after cycling off. When you asked about my flock that really hit home. I have been thinking that I should maneuver myself into some kind of teaching position to teach metaphysics or something spiritual. However, I do not believe my consciousness is quite ready for that except in a very small capacity. A very small class might work. If my frequency is higher than priest where does that put me? The priest is the highest frequency role as you may know. Testing spiritual tools really seems right as well. I seem to be looking for ideas that work and are effective.
    How long have you been on the Michael list?

 

   Mike Huttinger


Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 14:50:22 -0800
Subject: Re: Sage Internet Access (1998-04/667)

 

| From: Shepherd
|
| I'm changing my incoming e-mail addresses to go through my web site and
| be forwarded, so that whatever ISP I use, people will be able to reach
| me in the same way: sh@summerjoy.com is the main one (the old AOL
| addresses, which you'll continue to see as my return addresses, will
| still work for a while, too).

 

Is the new address operative at this time?

 

| BTW, my new web site (www.summerjoy.com) is ready for prime time now,
| with the shopping cart and credit card acceptance finally hooked up and
| working. I'm still tweaking it, though, and will continue to add
| material as I go along.

 

I took a look and there is a lot of stuff there!

 

| Feel free to e-mail me general-interest questions for Michael for the
| site. Answers will be posted, for now, anyway, under "Articles &
| Channeling."

 

OK.

 

| The site also has excerpts from my upcoming books, including "Opening to
| Healing Energy," which is coming out at the end of this year.

 

I read them and =really= enjoyed what I saw. I especially liked the chapters BEING IN THE WORLD/THE GAME and GROWING THROUGH JOY/WORKING WITH SPIRIT GUIDES. I recommend everyone take a look.

 

| Re: Michael's position within their cadre, both my channeling and Yarbro
| say 4th entity, although other channels have gotten different things.

 

Thanks.

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/M5=26/IME/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.


Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 09:24:15 -0800
Subject: [Fwd: ASTROLIST/Bill, Hillary & Monica go to Washington]

Thanks you all who replied about what you thought about the president thing.... God, I know I said I'm all for honesty, but sometimes, I think people ought to just mind their own business. I actually feel kind of sorry for him!

Anyway, I got this e-mail below from Carol Willis, an astrologer who I've talked to before and she's also a Michael student. I don't know much about astrology but I do like Carol's articles and I thought some people might be interested....

Blessings,
Lori

 

BILL, HILLARY, and MONICA GO TO WASHINGTON
by Carol Willis

(C) Copyright by Carol Willis, 1997. All rights reserved.


    I feel that once the electoral process has run its course, we should put aside partisan politics and pettiness to support the President with our goodwill, unless national security or citizen well-being are jeoparized. (For the record, I am non-partisan. I think I'm currently registered Green to help the Green Party get on the ballot in Calfornia a while back, but I'm really not sure what my registration is. That shows you how interested I am in party politics.)

    While rumors of sexual impropriety and perjury fly in Washington about Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, and Hillary Clinton leads the campaign for damage control and advances right-wing conspiracy theories, astrologers research the planetary correlations.

    Without going into judgments or making predictions in the matter of Clinton-Lewinsky, I'm going to focus on relocation astrology and highlight answers to the question, "What happens when Bill, Hillary, and Monica (who were not born in Washington DC) all go to Washington?"


RELOCATION ASTROLOGY

    Notes: Relocation astrology predicts what a person's most likely overall or net-result experiences will be in a particular location, what will be difficult, what will be supported, what the focus will be, how you'll be perceived, and much more. If you're trying to accomplish something in life, it does help to find a place that supports you in doing that! If you're floundering and frustrated in life, a relocation reading helps to pinpoint why and get you into more supportive locations. Relocation data is a "must" for anyone who is in business for themselves, or who depends on wide public acceptance for success. In addition to astrology, we also have to take into account socio-economic, cultural and environmental factors and use commonsense in selecting a location. But you don't always have to physically move to a place to get the benefit of it. Business and relationships are international today, and you can have key business and relationship connections in any location - we are no longer limited to one spatial location as in eras past. We have the run of the planet.


BIRTHDATA

BILL CLINTON, August 19, 1946, 8:51 am, Hope AR. HILLARY CLINTON, October 26, 1947, 8 pm, Chicago IL. MONICA LEWINSKY, July 23, 1973, 12:21 pm, San Francisco CA.

BILL CLINTON

    Bill Clinton is on his _Moon's Node_ local space line, which has the combined and somewhat paradoxical attributes of new challenges (North Node) plus ease (South Node), but with a definite accent on _karmic connections_. Bill has what I call "planetary support" for a date with destiny in Washington that he suspected when he met President Kennedy 34 years ago in the White House garden. The two formed an energetic link of affinity, and a torch was sparked in the heart of the young Clinton. Clinton admired Kennedy greatly, an admiration still evident today in Clinton's speeches where the voice of Kennedy may occasionally be heard in various phrasings, inflections, and style of delivery. While every American kid probably has a passing thought about what would it be like to be President, my sense is that Clinton has had this thought and goal also in a past lifetime. At this point in history, many Americans have incarnated in the US before, insisting once again on the freedom available here. The pattern suggested here virtually guarantees that freedom and democracy will eventually win out all over the world, because THE NATURE OF SPIRIT IS TO BE FREE.

    As Clinton relocates to Washington, his llth house Sun that correlates to wide popularity and high ideals shifts to his 10th house of authority and fame, giving him the power to accomplish his goals.

    Clinton's Chiron asteroid moves smack onto his relocated Ascendant at 18 Libra, giving him the image and _keys_ to move out into the public eye and build a _bridge_ to the 21st century. Chiron is flanked by Venus (in the 12th) and Jupiter (in the 1st) for charm and luck, yet Chiron can be a trickster, so Clinton could easily get ensnared in a secret love affair due to poor judgment and overconfidence. Things tend to reverse themselves unexpectedly and dramatically when Chiron is involved, beginning like a fairy tale and turning into a grotesque nightmare at times - all par for the course to be worked through, when you have a date with destiny!

    Saturn moves into top position in Clinton's relocated 10th house, underscoring the authority and power to set an agenda and accomplish many goals as President. One of his most impressive accomplishments to date has been to reduce the federal budget deficit that had eleven zeros in it, to ZERO, as Clinton noted this week in his State of the Union address. How's that for a Saturnian austerity everyone can get behind?!

    With Saturn in the 10th, a person has to always be prepared, do their homework, mind all their p's and q's, and be completely ethical, because if they don't, the powers that be come down on them hard and fast, and the older the soul the swifter the correction! Clinton is reflective and visionary, often caught between his dignified destiny as a leader and his generation's desires for free and unconventional experience. He at times finds himself in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't position with regard to telling the whole truth. If he tells the whole truth, he is negatively judged by conventional standards, and if he lies, he's in the ethical soup. So he tries to tell enough of the truth to squeak past the judges and allow him to continue on his primary mission in life. Before he finishes the mature soul cycle (see _The Michael Handbook_ by Jose Stevens on soul ages), the spiritual being who is Bill Clinton will have numerous tests where he will have to tell the whole truth even at the _risk_ of losing his chance at achieving a much-desired goal (or several such goals). Stay tuned in future lifetimes for the outcome of "the perils of our hero."

    Where does the current transit of Neptune in Aquarius fall in Bill's chart? Neptune conjoins Ceres asteroid in his 4th house; Clinton will have to renew his commitment to family values, lest Neptune erode the stable and caring family he and Hillary have built. Spiritual practice and church-going will be key factors in re-stabilizing home and family. At the same time, Bill is in the awkward limelight as a representative of the baby boomer generation, some of whom are looking seriously at unconventional relationship agreements and extended families. Oddly enough, these may actually provide more emotional and physical security rather than less as time goes on and the baby boomers become seniors, depending on the character and commitment of those involved.


HILLARY CLINTON

Hillary Rodham Clinton is close to her _Ceres asteroid local space line_, but is 50-60 miles away from a direct hit, if we use an 8 pm birthtime. My research indicates that the orb of a local space line is 20 miles on each side of the line, so 50-60 miles may feel like a near-miss as far as having full-out support. Nevertheless, Hillary is noted for her caring and nurturing causes such as health care reform and child care. The Ceres line is also a great place to bring up children, or to have anything to do with children or agriculture. Relocating Hillary to Washington DC shows her Ceres in Taurus moving to the cusp of the 10th and 11th houses, giving her "planetary support" and steadfastness for championing and popularizing her causes.

Hillary's relocated Ascendant shifts to the sign of Cancer. Using an 8 pm birthtime, her natal Ascendant is 29 Gemini, but if her birthtime were 2 minutes later, then Hillary would actually have a Cancer Ascendant, a real probability in fact given her round face and rounded body. A Cancer Ascendant allows the Moon to rule her Ascendant, and Hillary's Moon is at 29 degrees Pisces in the 10th house (natal or relocated). While she has a lawyer's mind like a steel trap with Sun, Mercury and South Node in Scorpio, Hillary's greatest fame and reputation will be from her Moon in Pisces in the 10th: compassion, understanding, social vision, caring for the needs of children, elderly, the ill - those who cannot care for themselves.

It is interesting to note from both a relocation and a familial perspective that the local space line for the ruler of Hillary's 5th house of children - Venus - goes right through Stanford CA, where Chelsea goes to university. Stanford-Palo Alto is a place that would be very compatible with Hillary herself as well, since many women like to be on their Venus lines, manifesting harmonious relationships of all kinds, interest in the fine arts, and a beautiful home environment. Some sort of relationship with the Hoover Institute at Stanford, or collaboration with Palo Alto think-tanks and professors are possibilities for Hillary's future.

Transiting Neptune in Aquarius squares Hillary's Scorpio Sun, and dazes her with an exact hit to the cusp of her relocated 8th house (life and death matters, inheritances, also sexuality). It's possible Hillary is currently relying almost exclusively on seasoned political skills and rhetoric, and has not fully registered the realities of the Presidential controversy and what this means for her personal emotional security. I would not be surprised to see Hillary having a number of mystical experiences in the next year, where she feels "caught up" for long periods of time (days or weeks) into other dimensions. Part of this is escaping from the pain of recent events, but part of it is a genuine spiritual opening that builds on earlier preparation.

MONICA LEWINSKY

Monica is not on any of her "planetary support" local space lines, so even though she has been a federal employee and her family has an apartment at the Watergate, she might be advised to find a place that better directly supports her.

Relocating to Washington DC puts Monica's Venus near the top of her chart (in the 9th house), which highlights her charm and feminine attractiveness and helps her win a White House internship as part of her higher education. Monica's relocated Ascendant is Scorpio, making her presence even more attractive and magnetic, and involving her in political intrigues. The ruler of her relocated Ascendant is Pluto, planet of power and intensity. Monica rubs shoulders with powerful people in Washington with Pluto in her relocated 11th house. Both the White House internship and Pentagon jobs both gave Monica ample opportunity for power networking.

New York City likewise offers Monica no direct "planetary support," and a similar relocated configuration. If I were to recommend a few places for Monica, I might suggest Palm Springs CA, Santa Barbara CA, Scottsdale AZ, western Marin County CA, the San Francisco peninsula, or the southern California coastline from Long Beach to San Diego CA.


BILL CLINTON AND THE MIDDLE EAST

Mars joins Neptune in very early Aquarius as I write this, and attention is shifting again to the Middle East, the possibility of a direct strike on Iraq, chemical warfare (Neptune-Mars), and the stockpiling of weapons of mass destruction, which are by definition capable of destroying whole civilizations (Aquarius).

If President Clinton travels to the Middle East, this would put the Moon at the nadir (bottom) of his chart. The President feels deeply for the safety and well-being of Middle Eastern families and and their homes. He has the possibility of being an instrument of peace in that area, even if he has to use military force to show he's serious - I realize this may sound paradoxical. On a more personal focus, Clinton's natal Moon in Taurus is in his 8th house of life and death matters, and the 4th house (the nadir = 4th house cusp) is the house of the ending phase of life. Clinton's Moon rules his 10th house of fame and visibility, so the ruler of his 10th is in his 8th house - we hope that he does not have to achieve his greatest fame in regard to the manner of his death. In my opinion, Clinton would do well to minimize or even eliminate any physical travel to the Middle East, and instead invite foreign leaders to Washington or send representatives such as our outspoken and distinguished Secretary of State Madeleine Albright (who is a steadfast Taurus with Venus in firey Aries, Moon in early Leo, and Mars at the no-nonsense position of 29 Scorpio). (If anyone has a birthtime for Madeleine Albright, I would love to know what it is.)

Clinton might step up secret service protection to avoid risky situations especially when Mars transits Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, or Aquarius.
These transit windows before Clinton leaves office are:
Apr 13 - May 23, 1998     Mars in Taurus
Aug 21 - Oct 7, 1998     Mars in Leo
Jan 25 - May 5, 1999     Mars in Scorpio
July 5 - Sep 2, 1999     Mars in Scorpio
Nov 26 - Jan 3, 2000     Mars in Aquarius

THE FUTURE

Clinton's solar return chart for August 1998-1999 shows a very challenging year in that people closest to him may reverse their usual stands and may leave or abandon him, but this would most likely be something that was rumbling quietly and intensely in the background for some time before it blows open. Honesty or lack of it may be a key factor. All parties involved may feel betrayed, and it will involve rebuilding life from the core outward.

Clinton's solar return chart for August 1999-2000 shows Saturn at 17 Taurus on the Midheaven, bearing down by transit on his natal Moon at 20 Taurus. This will be a time of testing and trials for the President, where he feels oddly unsupported or non-nurtured by those on whom he usually depends. Old issues could come back to haunt Clinton. Despite his solar return Moon being void-of-course at 29 Scorpio, he is not simply coming down the home stretch of an 8 year presidency. Clinton should do nothing that could possibly lead to disgrace now. Tell the truth at all costs if necessary. Any falseness throws a monkey wrench into the karmic wheel. Truth clears his heart, rings out over the land *as truth*, and helps set the "collective tone" (chord?) for the new millennium. Clinton is dramatizing the need of all of to speak the truth - a fuller, deeper truth. Directly or indirectly, Clinton will have a firm hand in articulating _definitions_, and in _defining_ the direction taken by America into the future.

Fortunately Clinton will leave office before Saturn exactly conjoins his Moon in the 8th in the summer of the year 2000, as that aspect could seriously dampen his energy, spirits, and reputation as President. He'll probably need some rest after being President for 8 years. I will go "out on a limb" and say that I see Al Gore becoming our next President, and Dick Gephardt of Missouri being our next Vice-President.

January 31, 1998

----------------
Carol Willis, MA
Professional Astrologer since 1970
Sunnyvale CA

Permission granted to forward - please forward with complete text, copyright and .sigfile attached. - CW

 


Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:58:20 EST
Subject: Karla Faye Tucker

I just witnessed on TV the carnival-like hoopla made from people cheering the execution of Karla Faye Tucker. I am sickened by such a lack of respect for human life, no matter how the individual in question lived it.

How long will this country continue to believe that violence is justified, especially in regard to capitol punishment? Societal acts of violence committed for the sake of peace, or RETRIBUTION, are just as barbarous as the crimes of the people who we punish for committing similar acts of brutality. The difference in capitol punishment is that it is governed by constitutional laws. Such rubbish...

Days like these make me ashamed to be a citizen of this country.

Dave


Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 21:15:05 -0800
Subject: Karla Faye Tucker

    Hi,
    One aspect of capitol punishment I have always wondered about is, what happens if they do that to someone before they have had a chance to process the issue so they then come back and do the same thing to society again? I don't like capitol punishment either.
    Mike


Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 00:30:40 -0600
Subject: Re: Karla Faye Tucker

To anyone who might know this:

    While we're talking about capital punishment, do countries that have capital punishment laws create karma at the individual level or is any karma created? In other words, when a person is executed in the U.S., since I am a citizen of the U.S. and partly responsible for it's laws, have I formed a karma with the person who was killed? Or is it that the person who kills someone who has created a karma with the victim has also formed a karma with society, then, when executed has resolved that karma?

John Macchietto


Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 01:00:06 -0800
Subject: Re: Karla Faye Tucker (1998-05/676)

 

| From: John Macchietto
|
| To anyone who might know this:
|
| [D]o countries that have capital punishment laws create karma at the
| individual level or is any karma created?

 

No. Capital punishment is a result of the laws of society, and does not incur karma if applied properly.

 

| In other words, when a person is executed in the U.S., since I am a
| citizen of the U.S. and partly responsible for it's laws, have I formed
| a karma with the person who was killed?

 

No, as above.

 

| Or is it that the person who kills someone who has created a karma with
| the victim has also formed a karma with society, then, when executed has
| resolved that karma?

 

No again. Being executed by society has no bearing on any karma involved. Karma can be incurred, however, if the execution is unjust. If, for example, person A kills person B, but person C is executed for the crime, there is karma between persons A and C as well as between A and B. This assumes the killing was not monadal. If it was monadal between A and B, there is no karma between A and B but there would be between A and C in the scenario described above.

There can also be karmic links between any parties that maliciously assist in C's being executed for killing B when C did not kill B.

All of this is explained in detail in the early Yarbro books.

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/M5=26/IME/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.


Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 10:29:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: A request for medical information

Hello everybody!

I'm forwarding this for a friend.

Oh, since I'm de-lurking to do this, hello to the list! I've enjoyed listening.
--Kathleen Klocko (mature warrior)

Ok, on to the serious stuff...

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Dear Friends,

    I have a problem that perhaps you might be able to help me with, even if it was to pass this on to someone else. This is difficult for me to post. Servers do not center on their own needs first, as I am one.

    I have chronic sebacious cysts. (The sebacious skin oil glands.) Another gland called the apocryn gland may also be a recent problem too. The result is alot of pain and hampered movement, usually followed by painful surgery. At this time, it's quite bad.

    I've had cysts since I was 12, but theyr'e getting worse, and not stopping as they did for my father when he was my age(32). His case was much more mild. I have been to many specialists and tried many drugs, all without any lasting success. I am also intermittently affect with psioriasis, which is less severe but uncomfortable too.

    I don't know if I have made this for myself, but I need it to stop so that I can regain a normal, active lifestyle. I genuinely want to be free of this, and am not a martyr or hypochondriac. I know that an answer to my condition exists, but I have not yet found it. To any persons with resources, or to any channelers with access to helpful info, I am willing to pay for services that could help, though I am not wealthy.

    I've included my essence/overleaves info if it would be of help.

With my Lasting Thanks, Chris:)

Old, level 2, manifesting true soul age Role: Server (Slave)

Bleedthrough from Essence Twin: Scholar Casting: Scholar

mother: Mature 6 Warrior (living her true soul age)
father: Mature 4 Artisan (living his true soul age)

Focused/Creative Energy: 35/65 Frequency" 35 (low, calm)

Goal: Submission, Mode: Observation #1,sliding to repression

Attitude: Pragmatist #1, sliding to Skeptic #2,

Chief Negative Feature: Stubbornness #1, sliding to Greed #2,

Center: Emotional , Moving part Body type: Martial 40%, Venusian 60%

 


Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:09:17 -0800
Subject: Re: Karla Faye Tucker

Dave,

I was wondering if we would ever get around to this topic. I have never been able to come to terms with the death penalty. There is something about this act that makes me very uncomfortable and yet I can not stand up with conviction and say stop. Try arguing with a group of military couples at an evening social. There always seems so many who feel that killing another human being legally is the right thing to do and that it helps in deterring further violent crimes. I can't change folks way of thinking, but I won't ever believe that taking a life is justified. Thus I sit quietly by still feeling terrible each time these stories become big news and hope that we can find other ways of dealing with such violence. Sigh.

Hugs (cause they feel good)
Diane


Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:31:53 +0000
Subject: Karla Faye and Capital Punishment

1. I don't especially think capital punishment is an appropriate tool, but when you consider the soul age of our country and most of its citizens, it is probably something we need to experience and work through as a society, and it probably will not go away anytime soon.

2. This may be an over-simplification, but maybe the heroin/redemption/execution cycle is just something Karla Faye needed to experience in her own evolution.

3. Maybe those folks cheering the execution are just playing out something they need to in their own evolution.

4. I constantly have to remind myself that this is all just a game, and all of these things that seem so terrible, immoral, unethical, and downright disgusting from our current perspective really don't mean much in the bigger scheme of things. We'll all eventually arrive at our final distination, and what we do here, regardless what it is, is only for the experience.

John Rogers


Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 11:57:22 -0500
Subject: The Karla Faye Tucker Execution

per Kenneth:
Michael, are there any comments or points you'd like to make regarding the "legal?" execution of Karla Faye Tucker?

per The Michaels:
We will say that some view the issue as being the execution of male body versus the execution of a female body, the latter being less preferable than than the former.

Others view the issue as being whether or not to execute anyone at all... whether male body, male psyche, female body, or female psyche.

Now,we ask you would Karla's execution have been more acceptable if she had had a male psyche in a female body, or a female psyche in a male body?

And let us also say that no one has the ability to "kill" anyone. Each one of you, as a fragment of his or her Essence is immortal. At most the only thing that can be physically accomplished is to render the body of the judged-guilty fragment totally unfit for use in your physical earth dimension. This has the effect of removing that fragment's soul/essence from the earth plane. The fragment is still alive. This may or may not prevent similar so-called crimes in the future.

There are three questions that each human must consider for him/herself regarding the matter of paying penalties for committed crimes:

1) What higher good does the so-called punishment serve?

2) What mundane good is really served?

3) Does the punishment really serve to discourage the commission of future crimes?

We will make no judgment about your present day penal codes, but we will say that for the most part they do not serve your spoken desires to live in a crime less society. Nor is there due consideration of the public financial burden of providing free food, clothing, shelter, medical care, mental care, and guards for someone judged to be a criminal; when a non-criminal usually has to provide all these for himself.

We would suggest that consideration be given to creating growth facilities rather than punishment and/or detention facilities.

We suggest to you that deep love and deep caring for all life will have a more salutary effect on what you call criminals rather than putting them out of sight (and out of mind) in a facility that fosters their lower natures and their negative overleaf poles.

per Kenneth:
Those of you who care to aid in raising the vibrations of this situation can do much through your meditations by telling the TAO to fill our seats of government, and our prisons, with as much light as possible. And SEE this as being done.

TAO will be done, on Earth, as it is in Heaven.

--
Peace and Light to You and Yours,
Kenneth Broom, Columbia, MD, USA
aka I.A.M. Research
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
7th Level Old Scholar, Observation, Acceptance, Idealist,
Emotional Part of Intellectual Center, Impatience. (INFP)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 12:43:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Karla Faye Tucker (1998-05/676)

Dick Hein wrote:

 

> | From: John Macchietto
> |
> | To anyone who might know this:
> |
> | [D]o countries that have capital punishment laws create karma at the> | > | individual level or is any karma created?

 

per Dick Hein:

 

> No. Capital punishment is a result of the laws of society, and does not> | > incur karma if applied properly.

 

per The Michaels:
Karma is the return of the results of one's creations. Those who create capital punishment laws and those who agree with those laws create karma concerning those capital punishment laws. "Society" is not exempt from receiving the results of its thoughts and actions.

 

> | In other words, when a person is executed in the U.S., since I am a
> | citizen of the U.S. and partly responsible for it's laws, have I formed
> | a karma with the person who was killed?

 

per Dick Hein:

 

> No, as above.

 

per The Michaels:
If you had no part in creating or promoting or agreeing with the capital punishment laws, then you have no karma there.

 

> | Or is it that the person who kills someone who has created a karma with
> | the victim has also formed a karma with society, then, when executed has
> | resolved that karma?

 

per Dick Hein:

 

> No again. Being executed by society has no bearing on any karma involved.
> Karma can be incurred, however, if the execution is unjust.

 

per The Michaels:
Karmic resolution, or completion, occurs when the total experience is complete. This can happen either before society's judgement and execution, or after. And this regardless of what society's judgement is. Society does not determine individual karma.

[clipped]

--
Peace and Light to You and Yours,
Kenneth Broom, Columbia, MD, USA
aka I.A.M. Research
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
7th Level Old Scholar, Observation, Acceptance, Idealist,
Emotional Part of Intellectual Center, Impatience. (INFP)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 13:48:34 -0500
Subject: Reformat of my last post re Karla Faye Tucker

John Macchietto wrote:

[clipped]

 

> To anyone who might know this:
>
> While we're talking about capital punishment, do countries that have
> capital punishment laws create karma at the individual level or is any
> karma created?

 

per The Michaels: Karma is the return of the results of one's creations. Those who create capital punishment laws and those who support those laws create karma concerning those capital punishment laws. "Society" is not exempt from receiving the results of its thoughts and actions.

 

> In other words, when a person is executed in the U.S.,
> since I am a citizen of the U.S. and partly responsible for it's laws,
> have I formed a karma with the person who was killed?

 

per The Michaels: If you had no part in creating or promoting or agreeing with the capital punishment laws, then you have no karma there.

 

> Or is it that the person who kills someone who has created a karma with the victim
> has also formed a karma with society, then, when executed has resolved that karma?

 

per The Michaels: Karmic resolution, or completion, occurs when the total experience is complete. This can happen either before society's judgement and execution, or after. And this regardless of what society's judgement is. Society does not determine individual karma.

--
Peace and Light to You and Yours,
Kenneth Broom, Columbia, MD, USA
aka I.A.M. Research
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
7th Level Old Scholar, Observation, Acceptance, Idealist,
Emotional Part of Intellectual Center, Impatience. (INFP)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 


Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:30:54 -0600
Subject: Sudden "American" attitude towards female lawbreakers

I'm wondering if any of the Michael Channelers have received any explanation for the "new" attitude toward women lawbreakers, i.e. Karla Faye Tucker and now today the schoolteacher in Washington. I'm hearing a different tone regarding these women than I've heard since the beginning of the women's movement in this country. I've also noticed it in reference to Monica Lewinski. I felt that the explanation for Karla was that she was "born again" and with Monica it was "youth". But I heard people on television today (I'm home with a dis-ease I gave myself for some reason or other), excusing the schoolteacher just caught with her student/lover again.

I am not sitting in judgment on any of these people, they all have their purposes, reasons, experiential sequences for these events. But what I am hearing from the general public is a far more tolerant attitude than I have heard in the past few years.

Does anyone have any ideas about this? Could it be the start of the vibrational shift that is to occur?

Love and very gentle Laughter (because I'll cough!) :-)

Jeanne Holley


Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 17:58:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Sudden "American" attitude towards female lawbreakers

per Kenneth: Right you are, lady. This is a part of the consciousness acceleration (and vibration shift) that started during the Harmonic Convergence several years ago. Plus... Right now the Earth is in the photon belt until sometime in June 1998, I think.

per Michael:
Right you are, Lady. <Michael grin> Greater tolerance of others and loosening of judgments is part of the human growth into a higher and more encompassing state of consciousness. Note the public's growing tiredness of the press' infatuation with President Clinton's alleged love affairs. Like there's nothing more pressing to be dealt with. However this will not change greatly until the public stops buying titillation.

per Kenneth:
TAO Bless You, and give you release from that dread mohogus. :>)#
Keep smilin' anyway.

Peace and Light to You and Yours,
Kenneth Broom, Columbia, MD, USA
aka I.A.M. Research
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
7th Level Old Scholar, Observation, Acceptance, Idealist,
Emotional Part of Intellectual Center, Impatience. (INFP)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Subject: Re: Karla Faye Tucker
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 21:40:24 -0700

 

> Hi,
>    One aspect of capitol punishment I have always wondered about is, what
> happens if they do that to someone before they have had a chance to process
> the issue so they then come back and do the same thing to society again? I
> don't like capitol punishment either.
>     Mike

 

Mike & everyone

I have been looking into, through the channeling process, the issue of Karmic Retribution for a few years now and the some of the answers I receive are. (Whether or not any of it is truth is up to individual discretion)

There is no eye for an eye etc. That is a baby soul concept of Karma. It is easy to understand and good for crowd control.

Karmic ties, ribbons, chords etc are removed through forgiveness between parties and it needs to be integrated into all three axis. That is to forgive someone you have to understand it intellectually, feel it emotionally and act. It must be reciprocal. (Just like math, Z x 1/Z = 1)

Karmic ties need to be removed in the same medium they were formed, that is, I can't break a Karmic tie in the astral plane after I am executed.

Execution and punishment does nothing to break the Karmic tie. Only forgiveness with ACCEPTANCE does the job.

Since the plant/animal/mineral kingdoms can't break the rules of cause and effect giving them a karmic zero balance (perpetual win-win game). Once you become a sentient human you start writing your own rules and cease to zero out. (I talked about this before in a Michael Line)

You need Karma to incarnate. No karma, no incarnation. If you don't want to cycle off quite yet you will have to purchase some Karma on the open exchange. (If you think wall street is a party, just hang out in the great Astral Karma Exchange).

Does capital punishment relieve your Karma? No. All it does is delay Acceptance. Karla Faye Tucker was probably working very hard to forgive herself and work for the forgiveness of the victims. She must have been praying real hard for them considering the spiritual techniques she learns as a BAC. Could she have stayed alive long enough to find the reincarnated victims? Now she has to wait on the astral plane, and research a way to meet them, again, and who knows under what circumstances.

Yours -- Ted


Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 01:42:58 -0500
Subject: Karla Faye Tucker and capital punishment

Ted, fascinating points.

An eye for an eye could be described as "equal indemnity," using a legal term for repayment of debt. When we add forgiveness into the mix, we get "lesser indemnity." As we move higher up the evolutionary scale of consciousness, motivation becomes increasingly important. And this is reflected in the physical plane in our current legal systems in the West, especially in our nation. When a person "repents" sincerely for the crime they have committed, our legal system tends to lessen the price of punishment they must pay for their crime.

In the case of the woman who was a brutal, bloody murderer who, at the time, reveled in her barbarous crime, but later converted to Christianity and "repented and changed" into a "new person" what we have here (if authentic) is a living example of what our prison system claims to hope to achieve: reformation of criminals into law-abiding citizens. It hopes to achieve it, but it rarely does.

Why? There appears to be no evidence anywhere (either spiritually or via the modern science of psychology) that a human social system which "teaches" sheerly through punishment can increase positive behavior by that method.

Research shows just the opposite, confirming the old spiritual adage known for thousands of years, "What you put your attention on grows." When you "reinforce" negative behavior such as murder and mayhem, through either praise (intense news media attention, high book advances and huge amounts paid for screen rights) or harsh punishment (life prison sentences or capital punishment), the targeted negative behavior (in this case, murder) only increases.

Interestingly, though, the same is true of positive behavior. When you reinforce it, it grows, too. But rarely does anyone reinforce positive behavior in our culture. The media, all types, simply finds it boring. Not "sexy" enough to be reported. Not chilling and thrilling to the audience.

So what does tone down negative behavior? It has been found (again, both spiritually and psychologically) that the best way to "extinguish" negative behavior is to give it no attention at all. To, as much as possible, ignore it.

But that is only the beginning. The next step (which our prison system rarely attempts to take, or does so ineffectively) is to offer training in replacement behavior. Behavior in effective social skills which can provide an alternative means to achieve fulfillment besides preying on fellow human beings.

Note: I fully admit that one needs to restrain violent people to prevent them from harming others while positive social training goes on. But to only restrain, and to reinforce the whole while that this not for safety's sake but merely to demean and degrade the prisoner as a means of brutally punishing him/her is not to teach the criminal anything other than how to increase his/her already high quotient of hatred and resentment. IOW, it teaches the criminal how to be an even "better"--more effective and more self-justified--criminal than he/she was before entering prison.

Will this approach ever be used for crime in this country? Maybe. When virtual reality makes it more feasible and cost effective. But it won't happen in the near future. And even when it does will be undercut by the way our news and entertainment media is constructed.

In Gavin DeBecker's wonderful book on violence, The Gift of Fear, he points out that our news and entertainment media, with its intense focus on crime and horrible criminal acts such as serial murder, especially, is directly responsible for the huge upswing in such crimes. There is a documented "copycat" action occuring for bombers, stalkers and serial murders particularly because such criminals *live* for all the hoopla their crimes can potentially attract.

Sadly, though many social reformers (primarily those wonderful, idealistic Mature souls) are heartily in favor of reforming criminals, the truth of the matter is we have little notion currently, in spite of intensive efforts to figure this out, how to go about it. The closest anyone has come to it in any way, shape or form (other than relatively very minor successes of psychology and psychiatry) are occasional instances of spiritual conversion such as for Karla Faye Tucker. Unfortunately, because our prisons are grossly overcrowded, the system frequently encourages prisoners to strive to convince their parole boards that they have authentically "repented and changed," when in most cases they have not and are simply trying to manipulate the system, and its needs to justify and unburden itself, to their own ends.

Thus, I believe it is indeed "karma" that so many criminals who have committed terrible crimes and who have truly NOT changed, or "reformed," are allowed to walk on parole when others who have actually reformed, indeed had a noticeable, powerful spiritual transformation, as Tucker seems to have had, are NOT allowed to have their sentence transmuted.

On the issue of capital punishment, IMO, the major problem for most people who object to it is this: it is a fact of life in this country that guilt unfortunately has little to do with whether or not (or how much) you are punished for a crime you commit. The amount of money you have with which to purchase excellent legal defense makes all the difference in this equation. Thus, though our legal system provides a right to legal counsel to every person charged with a crime, State appointed counsel are often incompetent or listless in the pro bono (unpaid, or poorly paid) pursuit of justice and truth. This means that rich people can often, literally, get away with murder, and that poor people often are charged with murder they did not commit. So a huge risk with capital punishment is that frequently, maybe as high a percentage as 30-50% of the time, the person being sentenced to death is innocent.

Theoretically, if they could be made to see this statistical truth, even people who believe venemently in an eye-for-an-eye would realize that it is neither right nor effective to demand that the State murder on society's behalf a person who did not commit the crime he/she is being punished for. State-sanctioned slaughter of the wrong person, IOW, does not "repay" or "effect justice" for murder.

Unfortunately for the potential of this understanding becoming more widespread is the fact that many of the people responsible for herding through executions are elected officials who want to placate citizens (often vocal Baby Souls, but sometimes very frightened, emotional Matures, or prestige-oriented, votes-conscious Young Soul politicians). They hope by supporting executions they will be seen as "tough on crime" and therefore worthy of votes at relection time.

Basically, when citizens demand that politicians "Do something, anything!" rather than take well-considered, thoughtful, *effective* action, situations like our current capital-punishment dilemma are the sorts of slapdash (and tragic) results we are rewarded with.

--
Kate McMurry


Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 00:02:15 -0800
Subject: Re: Sudden "American" attitude towards female lawbreakers

You know Jeanne, your words struck a chord in me too as to how there seems to be a lot more voices speaking for tolerance in the wind. Might it be, as you stated, the slight breeze in the wind of change? It sure has the sense of it, don't you think? Just my take on how your words ran through me.

Hugs, (cause it will hold you together when you cough...:)
Diane


Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 08:43:28 -0800
Subject: Fw: good luck
From: Sheri Casey

John Blanchard stood up from the bench, straightened his Army uniform, and studied the crowd of people making their way through Grand Central Station. He looked for the girl whose heart he knew, but whose face he didn't, the girl with the rose. His interest in her had begun thirteen months before in a Florida library. Taking a book off the shelf he found himself intrigued, not with the words of the book, but with the notes penciled in the margin. The soft handwriting reflected a thoughtful soul and insightful mind.
In the front of the book, he discovered the previous owner's name, Miss Hollis Maynell. With time and effort he located her address. She lived in New York City. He wrote her a letter introducing himself and inviting her to correspond. The next day he was shipped overseas for service in World War II.
During the next year and one-month the two grew to know each other through the mail. Each letter was a seed falling on a fertile heart. A Romance was budding. Blanchard requested a photograph, but she refused. She felt that if he really cared, it wouldn't matter what she looked like.
When the day finally came for him to return from Europe, they scheduled their first meeting - 7:00 PM at the Grand Central Station in New York. "You'll recognize me," she wrote, "by the red rose I'll be wearing on my lapel." So at 7:00 he was in the station looking for a girl whose heart he loved, but whose face he'd never seen.
I'll let Mr. Blanchard tell you what happened:
A young woman was coming toward me, her figure long and slim. Her blonde hair lay back in curls from her delicate ears; her eyes were blue as flowers. Her lips and chin had a gentle firmness, and in her pale green suit she was like springtime come alive. I started toward her, entirely forgetting to notice that she was not wearing a rose. As I moved, a small, provocative smile curved her lips. "Going my way, sailor?" she murmured. Almost uncontrollably I made one step closer to her, and then I saw Hollis Maynell. She was standing almost directly behind the girl. A woman well past 40, she had graying hair tucked under a worn hat. She was more than plump, her thick-ankled feet thrust into low-heeled shoes. The girl in the green suit was walking quickly away. I felt as though I was split in two, so keen was my desire to follow her, and yet so deep was my longing for the woman whose spirit had truly companioned me and upheld my own.
And there she stood. Her pale, plump face was gentle and sensible, her gray eyes had a warm and kindly twinkle. I did not hesitate. My fingers gripped the small worn blue leather copy of the book that was to identify me to her. This would not be love, but it would be something precious, something perhaps even better than love, a friendship for which I had been andmust ever be grateful. I squared my shoulders and saluted and held out the book to the woman, even though while I spoke I felt choked by the bitterness of my disappointment. "I'm Lieutenant John Blanchard, and you must be Miss Maynell. I am so glad you could meet me; may I take you to dinner?"
The woman's face broadened into a tolerant smile. "I don't know what this is about, son," she answered, "but the young lady in the green suit who just went by, she begged me to wear this rose on my coat. And she said if you were to ask me out to dinner, I should go and tell you that she is waiting for you in the big restaurant across the street. She said it was some kind of test!" It's not difficult to understand and admire Miss Maynell's wisdom. The true nature of a heart is seen in its response to the unattractive. "Tell me whom you love," Houssaye wrote, "And I will tell you who you are."

***
Send this to 3 people.... You will have good luck for an entire day. Send this to 8 people.... You will have good luck for all of next week. Send this 11 or more people.... You will know your true love and be happy for a long, long time. Send this to 20 or more people.... You and your true love are going to be happily married forever after.


Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:34:10 -0800
Subject: reminder about chain letters

Hi Everyone,
Just a little reminder, though I know no one meant any harm, to please refrain from posting chain-letters. Though I personally like that John Blanchard story (I've gotten it in my e-mail like 5 times in the last couple weeks already) the chain-letter part should be removed before posting stories to the list. Thank you for your understanding! :^)

Love,
Lori


Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 10:08:18 -0800
Subject: Season for Nonviolence

To the list:
    I saw Wayne Dyer on Friday Jan 30, the start of "A Season for Non-violence: A Reverance for Life." Events will be ocurring all around the world in honor of Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr.

    Wayne mentioned that if we all put our attention on peace rather than on violence for the next 60 days, we can do amazing things.

Barbara Taylor


Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 15:33:35 -0800
Subject: Re: The Karla Faye Tucker Execution (1998-05/682)

 

| From: Kenneth Broom
|
| Those of you who care to aid in raising the vibrations of [the "legal?"
| execution of Karla Faye Tucker] situation can do much through your
| meditations by telling the TAO to fill our seats of government, and our
| prisons, with as much light as possible.

 

*Telling* the Tao? Wouldn't =asking= be more appropriate?

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/M5=26/IME/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.


Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 15:33:41 -0800
Subject: Re: Reformat of my last post re Karla Faye Tucker (1998-05/684)

 

| From: Kenneth Broom
|
| John Macchietto wrote:
| > While we're talking about capital punishment, do countries that have
| > capital punishment laws create karma at the individual level or is any
| > karma created?
|
| per The Michaels: Karma is the return of the results of one's creations.
| Those who create capital punishment laws and those who support those
| laws create karma concerning those capital punishment laws. "Society"
| is not exempt from receiving the results of its thoughts and actions.

 

This appears to be in disagreement with the following from _Michael's People_ -

[H]owever a society defines its crime, it also defines punishment, and if that punishment is deserved, it is valid. /276

No mention is made of possible repercussions society might incur as a result of its lawful actions.

 

| > In other words, when a person is executed in the U.S., since I am a
| > citizen of the U.S. and partly responsible for it's laws, have I
| > formed a karma with the person who was killed?
|
| per The Michaels: If you had no part in creating or promoting or
| agreeing with the capital punishment laws, then you have no karma there.

 

So if I do nothing more than =agree= with capital punishment laws, I incur karma? Sorry, I don't buy it.

 

| > Or is it that the person who kills someone who has created a karma
| > with the victim has also formed a karma with society, then, when
| > executed has resolved that karma?
|
| per The Michaels: Karmic resolution, or completion, occurs when the
| total experience is complete. This can happen either before society's
| judgement and execution, or after.

 

Most of the time resolution does not occur during the life in which the karma is created.

 

| And this regardless of what society's judgement is. Society does not
| determine individual karma.

 

Correct.

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/M5=26/IME/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.


Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 15:33:47 -0800
Subject: Re: Karla Faye Tucker (1998-05/687)

 

| From: ted fontaine
|
| You need Karma to incarnate. No karma, no incarnation.

 

Really? What about the first one?

 

| If you don't want to cycle off quite yet you will have to purchase some
| Karma on the open exchange.

 

I challenge the validity of that statement. Nowhere in any of the Michael literature I've read have I seen anything like that.

From _Journey_ -

 

We choose whether or not to cycle off. Permission does not have to be granted by somebody else. /228

[The] designation ... would be described by Michael as a "seventh-level old soul transcendental," who has no remaining karma and could cycle off, but reincarnates mainly to be helpful to others. /211

Some seventh-level old souls keep incarnating after they are fundamentally complete with the physical plane--they have tied up their essential loose ends here. They may have even cycled off and later decided to return, out of interest or a desire to assist others. These people can develop resonances with the astral plane so that their perspective becomes a blend of seventh-level old and astral. Through the channel "Jessica Lansing," Michael referred to such people as "final-level old souls transcendent," as opposed to transcendental souls. /354

 

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/M5=26/IME/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.


Date: Fri, 6 Feb 98 17:00:30 -0700
Subject: Re: Karla Faye Tucker (1998-05/687)

 

> You need Karma to incarnate. No karma, no incarnation.

> > Really? What about the first one?

> If you don't want to cycle off quite yet you will have to purchase some Karma on the open exchange.

> > I challenge the validity of that statement. Nowhere in any of the Michael literature I've read have I seen anything like that. (Dick Hein)

 

Dear Dick & Everyone

Since I just pulled the seven of swords on this one it may be futile to try to convince you on this one, but I will make a few comments.

I would think the first incarnation has nothing to do with the individual fragment and everything to do with the entity. The entity has been diving into earth forms and running through species for a while but always balancing the Karma. At some place, or time, or location in itself it makes a decision to become human. I would think that this decision is not made from a single entity but made by the cadre.

What I am leading to here is that we as individuals are much more self serving than than a cadre. The cadre is thinking of the benefits of the whole beyond itself rather than what its going to eat for dinner or if its going to lose its job.

Most of us do not remember what it was like to be in our entity being one unified being. If you do, let me know what you have to say about it. I have a problem remembering what I did three days ago.

I would then suppose that if the entity is serving the Tao it is also serving other entities and comes to a planet to do just that - offer its energy to the system. Karma for the entity then is simply a means to an end, service.

So how does it obtain or accumulate the Karma to anchor or ground itself to the planet? What I am getting on this, and I am getting it now, and it is making me laugh a bit since it is somewhat humourous. It pays for it, purchases it, buys it, trades it or whatever you want to call it. It is funny but it feels very real at the same time. All it needs is a tiny bit as a catalyst to start the process. Once the entity opens the doorway the fragments just start rolling in. What do they do after they incarnate? Accumulate Karma.

 

> | If you don't want to cycle off quite yet you will have to purchase some
> | Karma on the open exchange.
>
> I challenge the validity of that statement. Nowhere in any of the Michael
> literature I've read have I seen anything like that.

 

Perhaps this is the first place in the Michael Literature for this to appear. Do we have to be redunant in our channeling or can we find, remember, and/or recognize what we have forgotten. As far as I know, we all have the information within us, Michael Channeling just helps us retreive it.

Reading your quotes from Journey I don't see who what I have to say is so much different.

 

[The] designation ... would be described by Michael as a "seventh-level old soul transcendental," who has no remaining karma and could cycle off, but reincarnates mainly to be helpful to others. /211

Some seventh-level old souls keep incarnating after they are fundamentally complete with the physical plane--they have tied up their essential loose ends here. They may have even cycled off and later decided to return, out of interest or a desire to assist others. These people can develop resonances with the astral plane so that their perspective becomes a blend of seventh-level old and astral. Through the channel "Jessica Lansing," Michael referred to such people as "final-level old souls transcendent," as opposed to transcendental souls. /354

 

So, why does it seem invalid for the fragment to obtain some Karma to jump start another incarnation? Yes, it cycled off and has no remaining Karma, so it "purchases itself some Karma on the exchange, at the going rate of course and just the right amount". I am certainly not in opposition of the above idea (I have channeled similar material often enough and I have not read the "Journey" book) and I don't at all see any contradiction. All I am saying is that we need Karma to maintain the incarnation process. If we don't have any we obtain some.

Look at the case of a walk in. A walk in will take on the Karma of the walk out. It enters that body with all the history of that body intact. Is this not taking on the Karma?

Many of us who are channeling the Michael Energy have unique parts to play. You may want to look at my work that way. Some channels play more major parts, such as bringing in the foundation material, and others of us take minor roles which augment the teaching. I make no claim to channeling the foundation material but I certainly find the study of it quite valuable and inspiring. I encourage everyone to study the overleaves and similar foundation material, then explore their inspirations.

Yours -- Ted


Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 22:51:00 -0600
Subject: Re: Karla Faye Tucker (1998-05/687)

bear in mind I haven't read a tremendous amount on the Michael Teachings as I am a NEWBIE and will be for the next 20 years

At 02:00 07.02.98 -0000, ted fontaine wrote:

 

> Look at the case of a walk in. A walk in will take on the Karma of the
> walk out. It enters that body with all the history of that body intact.
> Is this not taking on the Karma?

 

"The" karma? It wouldn't be the same karma though, would it? The walk-in/walk-out aren't exactly the same.. even if they were very similar wouldn't there be slightly different perceptions leading to different karma? If the body has a deformity which the walk-in doesn't view in the exact same manner as the walk-out, that would change whatever self karma the deformity served as for the walk-out. So this wouldn't really be 'taking on the karma' because the karma's changed and will change further due to someone different being at the helm. If you aren't looking at the situation in an identical manner I don't see how the karma could be the same. Can you really "take on" someone else's karma?? How can you "exchange" something, which, by its very nature becomes what *you* make of it ..?

I *really* like to lurk,

Melissa.


Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 23:09:44 +0800
From: J J Tan
Subject: Re: Karla Faye Tucker (1998-05/687)

FWIW, I would like to put in my $0.01 here.

One of the core teachings of Michael's is "all are choices" (or something to that effect). Based on this, I have to disagree with Ted Fontaine on his perspective of karma. Make or unmake karma is a personal choice, separate from the choice of being in the physical plane. Shepherd Hoodwin once wrote here that generated a great deal of resonance in me. (I would like to say "Great Sages think alike" but that sounds too shameless of me... ;-> ) My paraphrase is: "we choose to be here in the physical plane is simply to *be*." That what we perceive as "spiritual growth" or "learning unconditional love" is a by-product of *being*. (Our Essence already know unconditional love) Karma, in other words, is also one such by-product. It is not the "currency" in which we have to "work for" or "earn" in order to be born here. If this is the case, then "all" are no longer "choice", but rather, "karma is the pre-requisite", or "capital for investment", in return for some sort of gain (e.g. experiences and lessons of the physical plane). I simply cannot accept the model of the universe as having anything similar to Wall Street, or capitalism, or any such political / idealistic "-isms".

Now I don't mean to say that Ted Fontaine is not channeling "the same Michael". My opinion is that there might be some "filtering action" going on, not known to his conscious mind when the channeling takes place.

Any other opinions?

Regards.


Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 10:17:56 -0800
Subject: Re: Our role in Society

Dick & others,

 

> | per The Michaels: Karma is the return of the results of one's creations.
> | Those who create capital punishment laws and those who support those
> | laws create karma concerning those capital punishment laws. "Society"
> | is not exempt from receiving the results of its thoughts and actions.

 

    I know that each of us *can* affect the whole, therefore, we have both the ability to change things and to ignore our ability by continuing with the status quo. The harmonic convergence was an example of a collective desire to change.
    As older souls, we have an obligation as part of our role here to help the society move forward -- we are responsible for helping teach the younger souls. If we care about the world that we will come back to again, and our children and grandchildren must live in, we should be concerned about helping change the world in positive ways, rather than letting it bump along willy-nilly with young soul values.

 

> *Telling* the Tao? Wouldn't =asking= be more appropriate?

 

    Actually, commanding the Tao is most appropriate if you *really* want action! :) The powerful force of conviction available to each individual is an awesome one!

    By the way, these principles (the ability of each person to affect the whole through our thoughts and connection with the Tao) are part of many metaphysical and shamanic traditions.

-- Barbara Taylor


Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 11:54:12 -0800
Subject: Ted Fontaine's views on karma (1998-05/696)

 

| From: ted fontaine
|
| > You need Karma to incarnate. No karma, no incarnation.
|
| >> Really? What about the first one?
|
| > If you don't want to cycle off quite yet you will have to purchase | > some Karma on the open exchange.
|
| >> I challenge the validity of that statement. Nowhere in any of the
| Michael literature I've read have I seen anything like that. (Dick Hein)
|
| Dear Dick & Everyone
|
| Since I just pulled the seven of swords on this one it may be futile to
| try to convince you on this one, but I will make a few comments.

 

I don't know what that refers to, but assume tarot cards.

 

| I would think the first incarnation has nothing to do with the
| individual fragment and everything to do with the entity.

 

No; see below.

 

| The entity has been diving into earth forms and running through species
| for a while but always balancing the Karma.

 

Incorrect. Only sentient species form karma; hive-soul species do not. Prior to human incarnation we are not "diving into earth forms and running through species".

The following is extracted from _Tao to Earth_ -

 

We first approach the planet sensing it only energetically. We sense the planet as a whole, not as its parts. We do this first with the wind in spirit form. The members of the entity begin to take a hand in creatively molding the face of the planet, changing its surface features gradually according to a larger overall plan. A fragment has become a deva, a spirit who is caretaker of some segment of the physical plane.

After centuries some entities chose to move on to another planet, not finding their exact needs met here. But we stayed and pursued even greater separateness and individuality, becoming an ocean and experiencing a relationship with the moon and feeling the tides that moved us ever so lightly. We experienced many living forms within us, and with thousands of other entities had a hand in shaping those forms and the landmasses that contained us.

At this point some entities withdrew, as this planet was not for them; they sought a different path. We chose to continue, intermingling our energy with a mountain range where we experienced the profound solidity of rock mass. We were even more defined, more separate; we had become devas of the mineral kingdom.

After thoroughly experiencing the mineral kingdom we moved on to the plant kingdom, becoming a deva that attends the grasses and simple plant forms that have a mass character such as moss. Gradually we specialized into specific individual plants of greater complexity such as fruit trees.

After that came more complex lifeforms such as simple bacterias, microbes, and amoebas. Gradually we moved on to more complex crustaceans and insect forms.

After the insect kingdom we proceeded in devic form to coexist with fish and reptiles of the land and water. Here, as in the insect kingdom, we developed the rudiments of the instinctive center for later use as a human for basic survival. As a helping spirit we attended to these animals but did not interfere with their natural lifestyles.

At any juncture in devic development we could have decided to leave the planet in favor of other planetary experiences. [It is not specified at what level this is - individual fragment, entity, or cadre.]

We moved on to higher and higher animal lifeforms, always in devic form ourselves. We attended to them, assisted and accompanied them. At some point we began to accompany and assist single animals rather than entire herds. Eventually we sought companionship with men because we were preparing for our first infant soul life as a human being. This was sometimes in the form of a deva of a faithful dog or cat living in the company of humans.

When we had enough experiences, we were ready for our first infant soul lifetime. Once we began this evolutionary cycle we were committed to completion; we no longer had the option of moving on to another planet. The reason is that, as a human, we formed karma immediately and this requires balancing.

 

This was heavily edited and reworded in places in order to create, in effect, a summary. I recommend this book, as well as its companion, _Earth to Tao_, for very thorough coverage of this and other subjects.

 

| At some place, or time, or location in itself it makes a decision to
| become human. I would think that this decision is not made from a
| single entity but made by the cadre.

 

It is documented as by entity in T2E, but that would imply that cadres could be split among planets. Shepherd, can you clarify?

 

| What I am leading to here is that we as individuals are much more self
| serving than than a cadre. The cadre is thinking of the benefits of the
| whole beyond itself rather than what its going to eat for dinner or if
| its going to lose its job.

 

True, but you're also mixing concerns of the personality with concerns of essence.

 

| Most of us do not remember what it was like to be in our entity being
| one unified being. If you do, let me know what you have to say about
| it. I have a problem remembering what I did three days ago.

 

The personality does not; I would assume essence does.

 

| I would then suppose that if the entity is serving the Tao

 

I am not particularly drawn to that phraseology; I've not seen it said before that anything "serves" the Tao.

 

| it is also serving other entities and comes to a planet to do just that
| - offer its energy to the system.

 

We come to the planet for the experience.

 

| Karma for the entity then is simply a means to an end, service.

 

I disagree; karma is an integral part of the experience.

 

| So how does it obtain or accumulate the Karma

 

That is well documented.

 

| to anchor or ground itself to the planet?

 

Being "anchored" to the planet is a byproduct of karma, not the reason for it.

 

| What I am getting on this, and I am getting it now, and it is making me
| laugh a bit since it is somewhat humourous. It pays for it, purchases
| it, buys it, trades it or whatever you want to call it.

 

Completely incorrect. Karma is =earned= and =repaid=, not swapped around like so many shares of stock. Karma is a link between fragments that occurs when one interferes with another's life choices. Reams have been written about karma, and nothing even hints at what you suggest.

 

| It is funny but it feels very real at the same time. All it needs is a
| tiny bit as a catalyst to start the process. Once the entity opens the
| doorway the fragments just start rolling in.

 

A completely invalid concept. We are cast in order to have the experiences on a particular planet, and we incarnate as part of that process. Karma is merely a part of the process of a major cycle on a planet.

 

| What do they do after they incarnate? Accumulate Karma.

 

They incur =and repay= it; they don't just accumulate it. It is a byproduct, not the driving force.

 

| > | If you don't want to cycle off quite yet you will have to purchase
| > | some Karma on the open exchange.
| >
| > I challenge the validity of that statement. Nowhere in any of the
| > Michael literature I've read have I seen anything like that.
|
| Perhaps this is the first place in the Michael Literature for this to appear.

 

I was referring to =published= literature.

 

| Do we have to be redunant in our channeling or can we find, remember,
| and/or recognize what we have forgotten.

 

Just because something is different doesn't make it correct.

 

| As far as I know, we all have the information within us, Michael
| Channeling just helps us retreive [sic] it.

 

Correct.

 

| Reading your quotes from Journey I don't see who what I have to say is
| so much different.
| So, why does it seem invalid for the fragment to obtain some Karma to
| jump start another incarnation?

 

Two reasons, stated above -

1. It is not necessary.

2. It goes counter to all other (Michael) documentation about karma.

 

| Yes, it cycled off and has no remaining Karma, so it "purchases itself
| some Karma on the exchange, at the going rate of course and just the
| right amount". I am certainly not in opposition of the above idea (I
| have channeled similar material often enough and I have not read the
| "Journey" book) and I don't at all see any contradiction. All I am
| saying is that we need Karma to maintain the incarnation process. If we
| don't have any we obtain some.

 

Completely incorrect.

 

| Look at the case of a walk in. A walk in will take on the Karma of the
| walk out.

 

I disagree. Karma is related to essence, not to the personality. That's why it is carried from life to life, and why, as you state, we do not cycle off with karma outstanding.

 

| It enters that body with all the history of that body intact.

 

Right, the =body=, not its essence (it just walked out). Again, karma is related/attached to essence, not a body. Any karma associated with a body after a walk-in is a result =of= the walk-in; that is, it came with the essence that walked in.

 

| Is this not taking on the Karma?

 

It takes on the karma of the essence that walked in.

 

| Many of us who are channeling the Michael Energy have unique parts to
| play. You may want to look at my work that way. Some channels play
| more major parts, such as bringing in the foundation material, and
| others of us take minor roles which augment the teaching. I make no
| claim to channeling the foundation material but I certainly find the
| study of it quite valuable and inspiring. I encourage everyone to study
| the overleaves and similar foundation material, then explore their
| inspirations.

 

1. If karma and how it operates are not "foundation material", I don't know what is.

2. If those who "take minor roles which augment the teaching" bring in material that contradicts "foundation material", I'll stick with the latter.

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/M5=26/IME/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.


Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 11:55:00 -0800
Subject: Ted Fontaine's views on karma (1998-05/698)

 

| From: J J Tan
|
| FWIW, I would like to put in my $0.01 here.
|
| One of the core teachings of Michael's is "all are choices" (or
| something to that effect).

 

Correct.

 

| Based on this, I have to disagree with Ted Fontaine on his perspective | of karma. Make or unmake karma is a personal choice, separate from the | choice of being in the physical plane.

 

Right.

 

| Shepherd Hoodwin once wrote here that generated a great deal of | resonance in me. (I would like to say "Great Sages think alike" but | that sounds too shameless of me... ;-> ) My paraphrase is: "we choose | to be here in the physical plane is simply to *be*."

 

We come for the experience.

 

| That what we perceive as "spiritual growth" or "learning unconditional | love" is a by-product of *being*.

 

It is the result of growth; it is our goal.

 

| (Our Essence already know unconditional love)

 

Definitely.

 

| Karma, in other words, is also one such by-product. It is not the | "currency" in which we have to "work for" or "earn" in order to be born | here. If this is the case, then "all" are no longer "choice", but | rather, "karma is the pre-requisite", or "capital for investment", in | return for some sort of gain (e.g. experiences and lessons of the | physical plane). I simply cannot accept the model of the universe as | having anything similar to Wall Street, or capitalism, or any such | political / idealistic "-isms".

 

Well said, IMO.

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/M5=26/IME/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.


Date: Sat, 7 Feb 98 21:53:04 -0700
Subject: Exchange Rate

 

> One of the core teachings of Michael's is "all are choices" (or something
> to that effect). Based on this, I have to disagree with Ted Fontaine on
> his perspective of karma. Make or unmake karma is a personal choice,
> separate from the choice of being in the physical plane. Shepherd Hoodwin
> once wrote here that generated a great deal of resonance in me. (I would
> like to say "Great Sages think alike" but that sounds too shameless of
> me... ;-> ) My paraphrase is: "we choose to be here in the physical plane
> is simply to *be*." That what we perceive as "spiritual growth" or
> "learning unconditional love" is a by-product of *being*. (Our Essence
> already know unconditional love) Karma, in other words, is also one such
> by-product. It is not the "currency" in which we have to "work for" or
> "earn" in order to be born here. If this is the case, then "all" are no
> longer "choice", but rather, "karma is the pre-requisite", or "capital for
> investment", in return for some sort of gain (e.g. experiences and lessons
> of the physical plane). I simply cannot accept the model of the universe
> as having anything similar to Wall Street, or capitalism, or any such
> political / idealistic "-isms".
>
> Now I don't mean to say that Ted Fontaine is not channeling "the same
> Michael". My opinion is that there might be some "filtering action" going
> on, not known to his conscious mind when the channeling takes place.

 

Dear JJ Tan

I would appreciate it if you question me directly on any channeling I have done. I would like the opportunity to clarify whatever I am quoted on. You do not know me so you are probably not the best judge of what goes on in my conscious mind during what I believe to be the channeling process.

Wall street etc is a fun way to bring astral plane ORGANIZATION - what I have been calling the "astral bureacracy" - into our 20th century understanding. It is only one way of thousands to look at how energy and information are exchanged. Essence is energy, Karma provides the information and together they create multitude of forms in which we play the game. I have plenty of material on this subject and you are welcome to read it at my web site.

I do not remember ever saying that we earn Karma or have to pay for it etc. I do however believe the the information within the Karma is an important element in defining the events of our incarnations. Could karma then not be exchanged during the planning stage of a new incarnation?

Yours -- Ted


Date: Sat, 7 Feb 98 21:53:07 -0700
Subject: Re: Karla Faye Tucker (1998-05/687)

 

> bear in mind I haven't read a tremendous amount on the Michael Teachings
> as I am a NEWBIE and will be for the next 20 years
>
> At 02:00 07.02.98 -0000, ted fontaine wrote:
>> Look at the case of a walk in. A walk in will take on the Karma of the
>> walk out. It enters that body with all the history of that body intact.
>> Is this not taking on the Karma?
>
> "The" karma? It wouldn't be the same karma though, would it?
> The walk-in/walk-out aren't exactly the same.. even if they were very
> similar wouldn't there be slightly different perceptions leading to
> different karma? If the body has a deformity which the walk-in doesn't
> view in the exact same manner as the walk-out, that would change whatever
> self karma the deformity served as for the walk-out. So this wouldn't really
> be 'taking on the karma' because the karma's changed and will change
> further due to someone different being at the helm. If you aren't looking
> at the situation in an identical manner I don't see how the karma
> could be the same. Can you really "take on" someone else's karma??
> How can you "exchange" something, which, by its very nature becomes
> what *you* make of it ..?
>
> I *really* like to lurk,
>
> Melissa.

 

From Ted

Just because information has come through the channeling process doesn't mean that it is true. Also, just because another channel of Michael or Billy Jo or any other entity believes something to be true doesn't make it so. Validation, for me is a personal process but just because it feels valid doesn't make it true. Anyway I have found from past experience that getting into Michael arguments can be a bit futile (back to seven of swords).

Anyway, in response to your comments:

Karma is accumulated during a lifetime. We have Past Life Karma (PaLK) & Present Life Karma (PrLK). PaLK influences PrLK. PrLK is the result of PaLK.

PrLK is in the body. Since PrLK is in the body than at least the information of PaLK is there.

Lets say I get tired of this lifetime and decide to bail out. Another essence says, "hey, I can use that body, I'll take it". So the new essence takes over my body. Both Palk and PrLK are in that body.

The influences of all the PaLK & PrLK are in that body at the point of the exchange.

The old essence carries with it the information package, the personal akashic record (the PAK folder), but the influences of it are all still in that body. As far as I know, and this is my belief, we do not take our physical body with us into the astral plane at death.

If we are in agreement that there is an influence of Karma in the body we can continue.

So, the new essence comes into the used body with all that old information. Well, yes, it has no use for it, it isn't hers, but it is still there. What ever disease, deformity, eccentricity, peculiarity, affection, etc is still there. (Do you remember hearing about a heart transplant case where the recipient found herself with KFC cravings. It turns out the donner loved KFC). Also, the body's Mother, Father, Sister, Brother, Spouse, Children are still in the story.

So now we have two sets of desire. We have the desires left in the nervous system of the body and we have the desires of essence working through it. How long does it take? Some say about seven years to make the transition.

So, is this new essence taking on some of the Karma of the old essence, even just a little bit?

You could also think of it as hoping into a used car. The previous driver has not changed the oil, greased the wheels, or changed the spark plugs. You still have to drive the car to the mechanic to have it repaired. If the previous driver has driven into a ditch, you will have evrn more work to do before it is operating in the best way for you.

I hope this makes some sence. It seems logical to me but we all read and hear information differently. Some words are highly charged for us. Some words carry different defintions for us.

I like agreement because when we agree we become closer. When we argue we set up our boundaries and separate more. I have a big Cynic sub so I do like to argue, but...this skeptic would rather gravitate toward true personality and investigate.

Yours -- Ted


Date: Sat, 7 Feb 98 22:05:04 -0700
Subject: Re: Ted Fontaine's views on karma (1998-05/)

Dear Dick

You seem a bit resitant to looking at some of my ideas.

Seven of Swords is a Tarot card. In the A. Crowley deck it represents futility.

Instead of quoting other Michael Channels why not offer some of your own ideas to this board. I have also read plenty of Michael books. I certainly don't agree with every statement in them as you appear to be doing.

Your comments appear to be more geared for exclusion rather than inclusion.

I think you didactic approach to this teaching offers it little service.

Yours -- Ted


Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 17:18:47 +0800
From: J J Tan
Subject: Re: Karla Faye Tucker (1998-05/687)

At 06:52 AM 2/8/98 -0000, you wrote:

 

Karma is accumulated during a lifetime. We have Past Life Karma (PaLK) &
Present Life Karma (PrLK). PaLK influences PrLK. PrLK is the result of PaLK.

PrLK is in the body. Since PrLK is in the body than at least the
information of PaLK is there.

Lets say I get tired of this lifetime and decide to bail out. Another
essence says, "hey, I can use that body, I'll take it". So the new
essence takes over my body. Both Palk and PrLK are in that body.

 

I'm afraid that I do not agree with you that karma is carried in the body. e.g. A killed B in one life-time, in the next life, B "bailed out" before dissolving the karmic tie with A, and C took over B's body. Does that mean that C automatically inherit the karma? Isn't karma related to "responsibility", as well as "experiencing the opposites"? If C had nothing to do with A, there is absolutely no karma there.

I think you are too confused over this, but that's my opinion. I think you should step back from defending yourself, or your channeled message, and take an objective look. There is nothing wrong from admitting your mistake, or the misake of the channeled message. This is about responsibility, not "defend to the death".

 

The influences of all the PaLK & PrLK are in that body at the point of the exchange.

 

The influences may be there, but the "newly took-over" fragment would have it as part of the deal to cleanse it off, because it has nothing to do with karma that was none of it's business. No-one can repay karma (or dissolve) karma in-lieu-off another fragment, nor inherit it via whatever mean.

 

The old essence carries with it the information package, the personal akashic record (the PAK folder), but the influences of it are all still in that body. As far as I know, and this is my belief, we do not take our physical body with us into the astral plane at death.

 

Personally, I don't think karma influences are in the body. The influence of the original Essence, yes. But karmic, no. If that is your believe, it is about time to examine that belief.

 

If we are in agreement that there is an influence of Karma in the body we can continue.

 

If not? There may not be that many messages here. At least I haven't seen many channelers who have responded to this particular "karma issue" yet. What if other channelers disagree with you through their own opinions, or their channeled message? Do you still defend your belief?


Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 17:18:58 +0800
From: J J Tan
Subject: Re: Exchange Rate

At 09:53 PM 2/7/98 -0700, Ted wrote:

 

>> Now I don't mean to say that Ted Fontaine is not channeling "the same
>> Michael". My opinion is that there might be some "filtering action" going
>> on, not known to his conscious mind when the channeling takes place.
>
>
> Dear JJ Tan
>
> I would appreciate it if you question me directly on any channeling I
> have done. I would like the opportunity to clarify whatever I am quoted
> on. You do not know me so you are probably not the best judge of what
> goes on in my conscious mind during what I believe to be the channeling
> process.

 

Neither did I say I was doing any judgement. Did not that sound a bit touchy? What I did was writing down an opinion, which is worth next to nothing, as well as making a suggestion, which is also worth next to nothing. But somehow you sounded uncomfortable with this little next-to-nothing words.

 

> Wall street etc is a fun way to bring astral plane ORGANIZATION - what I
> have been calling the "astral bureacracy" - into our 20th century
> understanding. It is only one way of thousands to look at how energy and
> information are exchanged. Essence is energy, Karma provides the
> information and together they create multitude of forms in which we play
> the game. I have plenty of material on this subject and you are welcome
> to read it at my web site.
>
> I do not remember ever saying that we earn Karma or have to pay for it
> etc. I do however believe the the information within the Karma is an
> important element in defining the events of our incarnations. Could karma
> then not be exchanged during the planning stage of a new incarnation?
>
> Yours -- Ted

 

I understand that there are people (whom I have met personally as well as over this modern electronic network) whose lives feel like karma is the central issue. That they seem to have karma forces (or influences) pushing them this way and that until they really "get the works done". But it is quite apparently not the case for everyone.

As for "exchanging karma during the planning stage of a new incarnation", well, I remember reading one channeled message right here that karma can only be made and "paid" while on the physical plane. Unless you challenge that statement, otherwise I think you are wrong.

Regards.


Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 21:29:14 +0800
From: J J Tan
Subject: Re: Ted Fontaine's views on karma (1998-05/)

At 07:04 AM 2/8/98 -0000, ted fontaine wrote:

 

Dear Dick

You seem a bit resitant to looking at some of my ideas.

Seven of Swords is a Tarot card. In the A. Crowley deck it represents futility.

Instead of quoting other Michael Channels why not offer some of your own ideas to this board. I have also read plenty of Michael books. I certainly don't agree with every statement in them as you appear to be doing.

Your comments appear to be more geared for exclusion rather than inclusion.

I think you didactic approach to this teaching offers it little service.

Yours -- Ted

 

How about looking at it from another perspective -- if your channeled message seem to be contradictory to quite several other published channeled materials from Michael (past and present), wouldn't it be more logical that your channeled message is the "inconsistent" (if not erroneous) one?

Regards.


Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 09:00:24 -0500
Subject: Karma and Reincarnation

per Kenneth:
Why is there in so many people the need or desire to label someone's thoughts or words as "wrong" or "right" when no one of us has the full and complete "truth"?

per Michael:
"The value of truth for most humans is a survival issue. Survival of their self worth and their acceptance by society. There is a great premium, in your society, placed on a) knowing the rules and truths and b) adhering to those rules of your individual truths, that these same folks would rather stick to their truths and demean another human rather than accept that one person's truth may be just as valid as another's truth.

"How is it demeaning to say that someone is "wrong" or incorrect...? Truth is what "IS". Truth is infinitely flexible and malleable. You all create and change truth by your every thought, word, and deed. This is what karma is about.

"Karma is your "thought children" going out into the universe and creating/doing what you have declared to be true, and then bringing back to you their creations and experiences.

"Karma is your "word children" going out and returning to you their creations and their experiences.

"Karma is your "action children" returning to you with their experiences.

"If you even just "conceive" of an idea, that idea immediately becomes part of your reality. The strength of that idea and its impact on the universe depends on how much energy you, as its creator, put into its creation.

"Now, if that idea includes someone else then that someone else must contend with your idea, and its power, that you put in that person's being and in their life. You all influence each other this way. No one of you is disconnected in the ways that you may think you are. You all influence each other all the time.

"So when "Fragment A" says to "Fragment B" that "You are wrong." that one vocal or written statement of Fragment A's thoughts immediately creates a reality in which a vibrational cloud of "wrongness" appears in and around Fragment B. Now if Fragment B does not want this cloud of wrongness in her being she must somehow release it from her being. She must release something from her being that intruded itself into her being, without her permission, and that she did not want in her being.

"Love, as Kenneth often says , is the connectedness that everything shares with everything else. Most humans emotionalize and objectify this beingness, but it is nonetheless one valid and deep-reaching definition of a fact of life in our (yours and our) greater reality.

"So it behooves us all, you and us, to recognize that we all have definite effects on each other, some to a greater degree than others, depending on the energy exerted. Mr. Redfield tried to explain this in his "Celestine Prophecy" books. The song "No Man Is an Island" expresses this as "No man stands alone. Each man's joy is joy to me. Each man's grief is my own." The Master you called Jesus is quoted as saying "Love ye one another."

"As a teaching entity we say "Try to comprehend in your everyday consciousness that we are all connected to each other." To say "I disagree with you." keeps your ball in your court so to speak. To say "You are wrong." puts your ball into somebody else's court. Do you really want to do that? Do you really want to create that kind of karma for yourself? If you do then fine and good. There is no judgment of this on our part. Regardless of what words and behaviors you choose, try to be aware of the effects of your thoughts, words, and deeds on the universe. Active awareness is a key to what we call good work"

per Kenneth:
Why are there so many definitions of karma and love?

per Michael:
"Why are there so many fragments extant? <in a W.C.Fields voice> Just for the experience, my boy, just for the experieennce. But seriously folks... <Michael Grin>

TAO and Essence seek experience, not truth. Truth IS. All of the different truths of all extant fragments are grist for the beingness of TAO and Essence.

per Kenneth:
Hey folks, Michael's humor shows up when it shows up. What can I say? I love it.

per Kenneth:
One more question, Michael: what is your take on Karma and Incarnation and Walkins as has been discussed latley on this list.

per Michael:
"Just for a non-carnate fragment to desire incarnation creates the drive (karma) toward incarnation whether though the birth canal or by walking in. The rules of the return of karma apply whether or not a fragment has walked out or walked in. Human society, in general, at this stage of human development does not yet recognize walkins. So, in the case of the walkin, if society perceives there is karma to be paid by the walkout's body, then it will exact retribution from the walkin's body, not the walkout. This does not at all complete the karmic cycle for the walkout.

"The walkin will usually not experience the walkout's karma in that body unless it (the walkin) actually desires to experience the walkout's karma. This why after a walkin, there are so many divorces and career changes. The walkin has a different agenda than the walkout

"The walkout will usually re-incarnate to experience its abandoned karma. It is possible, however, for the walkout fragment to "take-on" its incarnate karma after walking out without being reincarnated. However this is not usually done because the walkout usually feels that it "needs" to be in the same physical or social situation that created the karma before the walk out. A walkout is not smarter or wiser after walking out, it just has a larger view of its own life and lives.

"There are wise advisors and guardians, etc. that are available to help discarnate fragments with their reincarnation decisions, but in the end it the fragment itself that "chooses" what it cares to do regarding how it accepts and creates its own karma.

"Again we say that nothing that we say is etched in stone. Being aware of choices and possibilities is the key to CREATING and RELEASING karmas. It's your choice."

--
Peace and Light to You and Yours,
Kenneth Broom, Columbia, MD, USA
aka I.A.M. Research
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
7th Level Old Scholar, Observation, Acceptance, Idealist,
Emotional Part of Intellectual Center, Impatience. (INFP)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 08:36:33 -0600
Subject: Re: Ted Fontaine's views on karma (1998-05/)

Dear Ted,

Why is it that you "sound" as though you have a chip on your shoulder and want someone to knock it off? No one on this list wants to fight about our belief systems. We each "validate" for ourselves and your right to believe is yours, but by the same token, none of us are required to believe your truth. Be kind and remember that if you bring in ideas that fly in the face of all previous channelings, you will undoubtedly be challenged, which is as it should be. More laughter and humor is good for all of us. The "endorphins" make us healthy. So smile for awhile.

Love and Laughter :-))

Jeanne Holley


Date: Sun, 8 Feb 98 09:27:41 -0700
Subject: Re: Karma and Reincarnation

 

per Kenneth:
Why is there in so many people the need or desire to label someone's
thoughts or words as "wrong" or "right" when no one of us has the full
and complete "truth"?...

 

Dear Kenneth

I really appreciate this last post. Very beautifully written. It is a real "keeper" for me. Thanks again.

Yours -- Ted


Date: Sun, 8 Feb 98 09:27:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Ted Fontaine's views on karma

 

How about looking at it from another perspective -- if your channeled
message seem to be contradictory to quite several other published channeled
materials from Michael (past and present), wouldn't it be more logical that
your channeled message is the "inconsistent" (if not erroneous) one?

Regards.

 

Dear JJ

You are quite right here. I still think the difference is a minor one.

Here is the issue for me though. I don't see how any channeled material can be in the realm of right or wrong - that is, that any of it can be considered a doctrine. What I was getting from some of Dick's responses that pushed my cynic button was what appeared to be the following of a doctrine at the expense of "my" ideas that were derived from the channeling process. It was similar to talking to a Christian quoting The Bible.

I have been seeing Michael Channeling as a way to help us construct beliefs that in turn create our reality. It has evolved for me to become a tool of exploration. I am not using the Channeling Process as a way to collect factual data.

Channeling has opened a lot of doors for me and I may just be going down a hallway that nobody has gone done yet (it could be a dead end too). If I find some goodies in there and bring them back to the main hallway to share and they are immediately rejected because they are a little out of synch with the information in the main library then maybe something is lost.

Thanks for your response

Yours -- Ted


Date: Sun, 8 Feb 98 09:27:46 -0700
Subject: Re: Ted Fontaine's views on karma (1998)

 

Dear Ted,

Why is it that you "sound" as though you have a chip on your
shoulder and want someone to knock it off? No one on this
list wants to fight about our belief systems. We each "validate"
for ourselves and your right to believe is yours, but by the same
token, none of us are required to believe your truth. Be kind
and remember that if you bring in ideas that fly in the face of all
previous channelings, you will undoubtedly be challenged, which
is as it should be. More laughter and humor is good for all of us.
The "endorphins" make us healthy. So smile for awhile.

Love and Laughter :-))

Jeanne Holley

 

Dear Jean

You could be right on that. I know I have issues about being excluded. It is not my intention to be didactic with my own channeling. I am sure that the martydom of exclusion will also be a driving force at times.

I still don't see why anything I have mentioned should "fly in the face" of anyone.This is not the first time that I have been at IDEA-logical odds with other channels but maybe there is some value to it.

What pushed my cynic button and turned up the warrior volume was how quick some respondants were to flatly say I was wrong. Did I mis read? Maybe I did. Do I think I am wrong? No. (Am I stubborn? Check out my web site for my overleaves).

My chip may just be some frustration coming from a perception that I am misunderstood. My channeling style includes figurative language that does not need to be taken literally.

So take care and I will certainly try to add some more controversy - unintentionally of course!

Yours :)

Ted


Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:37:52 -0600
Subject: Re: Karla Faye Tucker (1998-05/687)

At 21:53 07.02.98 -0700, ted! wrote:

 

Just because information has come through the channeling process doesn't
mean that it is true. Also, just because another channel of Michael or
Billy Jo or any other entity believes something to be true doesn't make
it so. Validation, for me is a personal process but just because it feels
valid doesn't make it true. Anyway I have found from past experience that
getting into Michael arguments can be a bit futile (back to seven of
swords).

 

oh! I agree! Fortunately, as a self professed (confessed?) NEWBIE, I can guarantee that my opinions are actually *my* opinions and not simply a channeling restated to look like my opinion. I haven't read enough to quote anything to back up my opinions anyway. Therefore I have no responsibility to be "correct" or whatever it is we are supposed to be. That's why it's nice being a NEWBIE. I refuse to be anything but.

As for the valid thing.. I tend to go with my gut instincts. I don't think my antenna is too bent or anything so my gut instincts tend to do me good. That's all I need. Although maybe I will read a few more Michael books anyway.. just for kicks. :P

Melissa.


Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 10:07:13 -0800
Subject: Re: Miller's Law

Dear Folks,
    One of the most interesting things about communications is that each of us has our own reality. Therefore, what we see or hear or feel comes from OUR point of view. Everything we do or say is affected by OUR reality, not the TRUTH. Therefore, wanting to be "right" and arguing over minute points of view is futile and not very interesting for the rest of us. It's also a well-known and easily recognized display of one of the ugly personality dragons (ie., chief feature).
    Another approach: try Miller's Law of Communication -- "In order to understand what another person is saying, you must assume that it is true and try to imagine what it could be true of."
    So rather than try to prove someone else wrong (which is impossible), how about trying to understand what the other person is trying to say and what their reality might be? That's good work, as Michael likes to say.

Barbara Taylor


Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 10:38:51 -0800
Subject: Re: Karma and Reincarnation

    One of the things I like looking for in channeled information is differences in perspective because many times the difference, in my opinion, is that a larger truth is there and not necessarily a contradiction.
Looking at things from many perspectives has helped keep me from turning the Michael Teaching and other channeled perspectives into a doctrine for me.
    Regards,
    Mike

 


Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 10:57:38 -0800
Subject: Esoteric aspects of Michael Teaching

    Is anyone else interested in keeping track of parallel realities besides me? Timelines fascinate me as I see there an indication of future trends. When Bill Clinton was first elected a Michael channel said that there was more light in the Whitehouse than had been there in a long time. That may be tough to believe for those following the various alleged nefarious activities surrounding Bill (I don't mean the sex scandal). That same channel said that Bill getting elected split off a parallel that was an experiment. Supposedly, in the main trunk of parallel realities for earth where Bush stayed president Desert Storm was used as an excuse to declare martial law. After Bill had been president for about four years that same Michael channel said that this timeline we are in has moved closer to the main trunk. I took that to mean that this parallel has less freedom now more like the main trunk where Bush is (was? He may not have been elected to a second term) president. I realize my curiosity for the future is based in a fear of change. Anyone else have information on this?

    Regards,
    Mike


Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 14:08:31 EST
Subject: Re: Ted Fontaine's views on karma

In a message dated 2/7/98 11:54:36 AM PST, Dick Hein writes:

 

<< | I challenge the validity of that statement. Nowhere in any of the
      | Michael literature I've read have I seen anything like that. (Dick
      | Hein) >>

 

Dick and others

I don't think any channel on here holds the title of being indisputable. If you can give me some tangible evidence that what they say is undeniably irrefutable, then we'll write their doctrines in stone; otherwise, lets listen to some of Ted's ideas, and give him the same modicum of respect and courtesy that we give to the other channels.

Personally, I've received good information from Ted in private sessions. Besides, if we adhere to the precepts that our thoughts form the fabric of our existence, then any idea, on a subjective level, has validity and carries with it -- the truth.

Dave


Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 14:20:24 EST
Subject: Re: Ted Fontaine's views on karma (1998-05/)

In a message dated 98-02-08 09:42:16 EST, Jeanne Holley writes:

 

<< Dear Ted,

Why is it that you "sound" as though you have a chip on your
shoulder and want someone to knock it off? >>

 

I didn't perceive this at all. In fact, the only chips I've seen in these posts are the kind one can step in. Ted is relatively new here, so lets be courteous and clear a path for him so that he doesn't soil his shoes. ;-p

Dave


Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:28:46 -0800
Subject: Exchange Rate

    I remember a particular Michael channel told me that he could sense that different Michael fragments would come in and leave during the channeling process depending on the question being asked. A question on astrology for example, always brought the same Michael fragment in as he was the Michael fragment who knew more about astrology than others in the Michael entity. I thought of that when I read:

 

channeling "the same Michael". My opinion is that there might be some "filtering action" going
on, not known to his conscious mind when the channeling takes place.

 

    Regards,
    Mike


Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:48:17 -0800
Subject: no Karma with Michael entity

    I began to remember past lives and past cycles a few years ago. I became aware that I was angry at the entity Michael. Michael, or I should say one of their fragments, had (detail left out here to keep this a family oriented list) done me in in a past life. I remembered the anger and a few of the details of the incident leading to my demise. The Michael channel filled me in on what happened. If I wanted to process that karma further I would have to process it with someone else besides Michael because he has already left! I seem to be over it but I wonder if I will be angry about it when I cycle off? Michael told me in a past life that one of their fragments was my parent. It occurred to me just now that that may have been the other end of the karma for their fragment, giving me life when that fragment took my life in another incarnation. Initially, some of these memories were difficult to accept. It was especially difficult to remember that I had hurt other people in other lifetimes.
    The past cycles I remember include being what we would call extraterrestrials of various persuasions.
    Does anyone else have memories of past lives/cycles that have impacted this life?

    Regards,
    Mike


Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 12:19:53 -0800
Subject: value of perspectives

    One of the reasons I have enjoyed Ted's channelings so much over the past years with his publications, and now on this list, is because of his new perspectives and fresh information. Ted, I really enjoy your perspectives.
    I have heard of the idea from non Michael channelers about memories being stored in the body. Get this, I have even heard that some of the issues (not necessarily karma?) we have are in our DNA and can be handed down from generation to generation unless someone in the chain successfully processes that issue! It seems reasonable to me that a new essence (walk in) in a body might see memories of the previous essence and the essence in the body might get confusing information at first about which memories were its own which it brought with it.
    take care,
    Mike Huttinger


Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 13:40:36 -0800
Subject: Re: Ted Fontaine's views on karma (1998-05/704)

 

| From: ted fontaine
|
| Dear Dick
|
| You seem a bit resitant [sic] to looking at some of my ideas.

 

I assume the word you wanted here was "resistant", or was it "reticent"? In any case, I rejected your ideas =after= looking at them, not before.

 

| Seven of Swords is a Tarot card. In the A. Crowley deck it represents
| futility.

 

Hmmm. OK.

 

| Instead of quoting other Michael Channels why not offer some of your own
| ideas to this board.

 

There are several reasons -

1. I came to the teachings in this life because of what I read in the early Yarbro books. The actual words of Michael resonate strongly with me, as do the concepts presented.

2. Those concepts resonate because they are -
   a. Logical. That is, "they fit" with what I have observed during the course of this life.
   b. Structured.
   c. Detailed.
   d. Consistent (are logical within themselves).
   e. Fairly complex.

3. I am a Mature/5 at this time, so I don't have the perception of most fragments currently active in the teachings with whom I have come in contact (they are, of course, Old).

4. I am not comfortable with the idea of presenting one's personal ideas about the teachings if those ideas contradict what has been channeled by reliable channels.

5. Acquiring, accumulating, and imparting information are what Scholars do better than generating new ideas. I think Artisans would be more suited to such activities. Could that be where some of your ideas originate? You are an Artisan/Scholar, are you not?

 

| I have also read plenty of Michael books.

 

Recently?

 

| I certainly don't agree with every statement in them as you appear to
| be doing.

 

I evaluate all information I encounter, and react accordingly. Offhand I don't recall disagreeing with any statements in published literature (that is, books) that I've read except those that contradict each other.

 

| Your comments appear to be more geared for exclusion rather than
| inclusion.

 

My basic mode of operation is deductive, wherein one method is to exclude things I perceive to be invalid in order to identify the valid ones.

 

| I think you [sic] didactic approach to this teaching offers it little
| service.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But aren't we getting a little off topic?

One more thing - I think it would be of benefit if you would use a spell checker on your messages before posting them. I am surprised that you, being a school teacher, don't already do that.

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/M5=26/IME/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.


Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 13:40:47 -0800
Subject: Re: Karla Faye Tucker (1998-05/703)

 

| From: ted fontaine
|
| Karma is accumulated during a lifetime.

 

Some may be incurred and some may be paid back.

 

| We have Past Life Karma (PaLK) & Present Life Karma (PrLK).

 

OK.

 

| PaLK influences PrLK.

 

PaLK =may= influence PrLK, depending on circumstances.

 

| PrLK is the result of PaLK.

 

Wrong; PrLK is earned during the current life. If you disagree with that, a more precise definition of "PrLK" is needed.

 

| PrLK is in the body.

 

Insofar as it is in one's personal akashic records which are in the instinctive center, correct.

 

| Since PrLK is in the body than [sic] at least the information of PaLK is there.

 

PaLK is in the body, in the instinctive center, but not as a result of PrLK. From _Earth to Tao_ (E2T) -

 

[Y]our instinctive center is a repository for incomplete karmic ribbons and self karmic lessons. /196

 

For those unfamiliar with E2T - it has an entire chapter devoted to the instinctive center, and it is quite detailed.

 

| Lets say I get tired of this lifetime and decide to bail out. Another
| essence says, "hey, I can use that body, I'll take it". So the new
| essence takes over my body. Both Palk and PrLK are in that body.
|
| The influences of all the PaLK & PrLK are in that body at the point of
| the exchange.

 

OK.

 

| The old essence carries with it the information package, the personal
| akashic record (the PAK folder),

 

That would seem to be correct.

 

| but the influences of it are all still in that body.

 

What influences? And =all= still in the body? That is not specific enough to assess its accuracy.

 

| As far as I know, and this is my belief, we do not take our
| physical body with us into the astral plane at death.

 

I think all of us can agree with that.

 

| If we are in agreement that there is an influence of Karma in the body
| we can continue.

 

There can be no agreement when there is misunderstanding.

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/M5=26/IME/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.


Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 13:40:54 -0800
Subject: Re: Exchange Rate (1998-05/706)

 

| From: J J Tan
| Subject: Re: Exchange Rate
| Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 17:18:58 +0800

| As for "exchanging karma during the planning stage of a new incarnation",
| well, I remember reading one channeled message right here that karma can
| only be made and "paid" while on the physical plane.

 

Major karma ("killing" karma) must always be repaid on the physical plane. Lesser karma can sometimes be taken care of on the astral. Some 7th level Old fragments do this in order to not have to incarnate again prior to cycling off.

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/M5=26/IME/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.


Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 13:40:41 -0800
Subject: Re: Exchange Rate (1998-05/702)

 

| From: ted fontaine
|
| Could karma then not be exchanged during the planning stage of a new
| incarnation?

 

Not according to Michael as documented in published literature. From _Messages_ -

 

[It is possible to have more than one karmic debt to the same
person.] It is also possible to be mutually obligated. In the
latter case, if the mutual debt can be acknowledged by the fragments
during their physical lifetime, and the agreement made to cancel the
mutual debt, then the debt is truly erased. We must stress,
however, that both parties must be genuinely willing, the debts must
be honestly acknowledged, and the agreement to cancel the debts must
be truly understood. In other words, both must be completely aware
of what they are doing.

[It is n]ot necessary [to know what the debts are], but it helps. /201

 

Perhaps you have a misunderstanding of what karma really is. Again from _Messages_ -

 

Karma is a weaving together of life cycles. Karma is not fate. Fate is a lie. Karma is a law. There is a great danger in becoming fatalistic about karma. You must learn this about karma: that lessons learned in this way are eternally yours. /161

 

Karma just is not something to be bartered or traded about. It is yours and yours alone (and the other fragment's, of course) until it is paid. And even then, as Michael says, the lessons are eternally yours.

The concept of choice =and the ramifications of choice= would be undermined if karma could be disposed of in a manner other than by paying it back (or, rarely, by mutual agreement =between the parties involved=).

From _More Messages_ -

 

Karma ... is the result of removing another fragment's ability
and/or right to choose for itself, and is a profoundly compelling
tie between fragments until the karmic ribbon has been burned by
equal payment. /275

[A] fragment does not incur karma for bad manners. Karma results
when the life choices of another fragment have been abrogated
without prior agreement. [...] Karma is without doubt the most
compelling tie between fragments, although it is often unpleasant. /33

 

They are speaking here of =major= karma ("killing" karma), as explained in the next quote from _Michael's People_ -

 

Where life choices have been interrupted or diverted, such as by
wrongful death or imprisonment, then karma is the result, and the
ribbon will exist until it is burned. There are lesser debts, of
course, those that do not have the weight of karma nor the
prearrangement of agreements and interfragmental monads, and we
would describe these lesser debits as acts of restitution. /33

 

Here is one more, again from _Michael's People_, that also stresses choice -

 

If there is a "purpose to life" it is choice. You are here to
choose. All of life is a series of choices, and even when choice is
abdicated, it is choice. Where life choice is denied, there is
karma, and karma will be balanced, the ribbon will be burned, for
that is the nature of evolution. Choice will lead to karma and
choice will lead to its burning. This is not a contradiction.
Personality may choose to abdicate the burning of karma in a given
incarnation, but Essence will eventually choose the Overleaves and
circumstances that will permit the release that comes from burning
karma, for that is part of evolution, and Essence, by its very
nature, seeks evolution. Choice is the manifestation of evolution
for fragments on the physical plane. All planes experience choice,
but not in the fragmental sense that is the nature of the physical
plane. /185

 

IMO to think of karma as something that can be freely exchanged with other fragments is to trivialize the whole concept.

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/M5=26/IME/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.


Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 17:41:32 EST
Subject: Re: Ted Fontaine's views on karma (1998-05/704)

In a message dated 98-02-08 16:43:40 EST, Dick Hein writes:

 

<< One more thing - I think it would be of benefit if you would use a spell
checker on your messages before posting them. I am surprised that you,
being a school teacher, don't already do that. >>

 

Does it really matter if every document is meticuously scanned for heinous acts of grammatical offenses or spelling abuse? Life is already too much like the classroom. The last thing I think we want is to be thrust into yet another environment where we need to take a test. Besides, I'm too busy studying for my urine test.

But most importantly, I don't own a spell checker. Uh, can anyone send me one? I, I, I...I feel so naked without it. ;-p

Just kidding...

Dave


Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 18:07:05 -0800
Subject: re: value of perspectives

 

From: Mike Huttinger
I have heard of the idea from non Michael channelers about memories
being stored in the body.

 

Hi Mike and everyone,

I was just going to post something about this myself! :^) Not only have I read probably the same sources you have, Mike, but I have been getting personal experience validating this very thing.

I was adopted at 3 weeks of age and never knew who my birth-mother or biological family was until I did a search which turned up my b-mom Sheila in December '97. Turns out she lives only about 20 miles from me, and is a first-level old king--which I found out because she is open and interested in the metaphysical and spiritual, and came with me to a Michael meeting a few weeks ago. I am astonished and amazed that I actually have a family member who is interested in my spiritual stuff!!! My adoptive family has always just kind of put up with my strangeness but now I'm actually seeing these things in other people who I'm biologically related to. I've got a brother and sister close to my age, one a sage and the other an artisan--and they've got these telepathic tendencies too--it's weird--even though I haven't ever known them before, we all just so easily click onto the same wavelength or something, and know what the others are thinking practically! I know I mentioned one time how I have these issues about abandonment. My brother and sister Rick and Gina seem to have it too--and it revolves around b-father Victor, who has abandoned, at some time in their lives, all of his children. I was merely the first. We've got 2 other half-siblings who are teenagers who I haven't met yet.... I'm thankful to Sheila though for putting me up for adoption, just as I had always felt. I realize my abandonment issues have really nothing to do with her. There's just no "juice" there--things are pretty peaceful between us, and I'm so glad I've been getting to know her! I see now how I even helped her pick out my parents when the social worker allowed her to do that--even though allowing a minor to choose the adoptive parents was a rare thing back in 1969. When I think of Victor though--he's in the Philippines, and I do not feel like contacting him at this time--there is a lot of "juice." When I heard that he'd suggested Sheila get an abortion when she was pregnant with me, that really made me angry. It seems everybody in the family, including Victor's own father, has a real problem with him and his behavior. I wonder if this is what Michael calls, "family karma."

 

Get this, I have even heard that some of the issues (not necessarily karma?)
we have are in our DNA and can be handed down from generation to generation
unless someone in the chain successfully processes that issue!

 

The abandonment also goes back to my maternal grandmother, who grew up in an orphanage and didn't really know her parents--she just remembers her father as a tall dark man (American Indian we think) who smelled like alcohol all the time. Reminds me of the pain of the Native Americans who lost their way of life, their land, everything.... I can't imagine an unhealed wound like that wouldn't be passed down on a cellular level to future generations. I even remember in a hypnosis session, where I remembered being a Native American in a tribe on the east coast of the US, when the Europeans first came over, and the love affair I had with one of the men, and when the ships returned years later, my love was not among them, and they destroyed our village where I was an old woman huddling with children in my arms in a hut as it burned down around us and we all died.

I have a friend who had a client he was working with, who I thought must be his ET or another very close fragment, because of the attraction he described to me that they felt for each other. This woman who was his client spontaneously recalled a past life with my friend where they were married and made these special kinds of breads in a village somewhere in Europe, which she knew the word for even though it wasn't in English. My friend said he'd come from a family who had made these breads in a small village there in Europe for 10 generations before his family came to the US. This woman knew nothing of that beforehand.... I thought how interesting it was that my friend must have reincarnated into the same family! Don't you think there must be something from that other life that perhaps he's dealing with in this life too, something that is even in his cellular memory?

There are a lot of addictive behavior patterns that run in my family. I would say this biological trait, which is genetic, was taken on by us to learn the lesson of letting go. Michael says that letting go is one of the old-soul lessons of most scholars, and admittedly, it's a difficult one for me, and having this body, it's a very intense self-karma. I was not surprised in the least to find out how many alcoholics and drug-abusers there are in my biological family--and just flat out how many people there are in that family--it's huge! There were some wild ones. I have known their pain at the core of my being--it's what told me not to go there to abuse substances, or others. I knew there had to be alcoholism in my family back when I was in college and used to impress my engineering-major friends with the way I could put down up-side-down margaritas at Tortilla Flats on Friday nights. I rarely let myself drink enough to get drunk, but when I did, I never once got sick, fell down, blacked out, or even had a hangover the next day. This, I thought, was some "power" that I should not abuse! I felt it was related to my obsessive tendencies on an emotional level too. I rarely drink alcohol nowadays, and it's in small amounts.

I was thinking that maybe that American Indian who was my great-grandfather was related to the woman I was in that life in the tribe that got masacred by the white men on the ship. This life, I'm mostly white, but I think that somehow, the genetics tie both heritages together.... They make the conflicts of the past that are in the cellular memory show up in the present, and when a fragment who wants healing and paying back of karma chooses this kind of body, it can heal all sides, all the way back.... You know that we are not ever truly alone, even though we are all in separate bodies--our Essences are tied together not only by karma, but by placement within our Cadences, Entities, and within our Cadres, all the way back to the Tao. On the physical plane we are tied together by genetics, and our souls take on these ties when they take on bodies.

 

It seems reasonable to me that a new essence (walk in) in a body might see
memories of the previous essence and the essence in the body might get
confusing information at first about which memories were its own which it
brought with it.

 

Ruth Montgomery had an excellent book on walk-ins that I remember reading when I was a teenager, but I forget the title of the book now. What I remember most from it was that for a walk-in to occur, the fragment walking-out usually severed most of its ties with its duties and responsibilities before leaving, but if not, the walking-in fragment would pretty much clean up the walk-out's mess before moving on and doing its own thing. The walk-in often didn't recognize the families of the body and/or walk-out as its own very well, but it's my opinion now that this may mainly be due to the body's mourning the loss of the walk-out and the walk-in's not being very grounded. I know of one walk-in who, in taking on her body, still has to deal with the traumas that the walk-out experienced as a child. These things in the cellular memory don't just disappear with the leaving of the soul from the body. I feel very certain of this now. The healing of the cellular/genetic memory by one fragment does assist the healing of the other fragments and assists the completion of karma of those fragments who share the genetic memories. This is why the burning of karma must occur on the physical plane most of the time--the karma is carried by the body AND the soul, as they work together in what's called life.

I could say a lot more, but maybe later!
Thank you for this very interesting thread.

Blessings,
Lori


Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 11:32:31 +0800
Subject: Re: Ted Fontaine's views on karma

At 06:27 PM 2/8/98 -0000, ted fontaine wrote:

 

>> How about looking at it from another perspective -- if your channeled
>> message seem to be contradictory to quite several other published channeled
>> materials from Michael (past and present), wouldn't it be more logical that
>> your channeled message is the "inconsistent" (if not erroneous) one?
>>
>> Regards.
> Dear JJ
>
> You are quite right here. I still think the difference is a minor one.
>
> Here is the issue for me though. I don't see how any channeled material
> can be in the realm of right or wrong - that is, that any of it can be
> considered a doctrine. What I was getting from some of Dick's responses
> that pushed my cynic button was what appeared to be the following of a
> doctrine at the expense of "my" ideas that were derived from the
> channeling process. It was similar to talking to a Christian quoting The
> Bible.

 

After reading the channeled message by Kenneth Broom, I realized that some of my posts (in this particular issue) reflected that I had not been really "opened for possibilities" in the way of speech. I apologize for my manners. :-) But not for my opinions. :-) I still feel that your interpretation of karma in "the scheme of things" is rather narrow. It may fit in where karma and reincarnation is concerned, but I think your model would fail when other issues are taken into consideration, such as freedom of choice (as I mentioned in one post), and that karma is "non-transferrable" (relating to the necessity to experience the karma, as well as the responsibility of it).

And yes, they way Dick Hein quoting the books was also a bit unsettling to me. I think you said it there that it was like Christian quoting holy scripture. Given that we have seen several reference to "mistakes in channeled messages", including those in the early books (Messages from Michael, or More Messages from Michael), it was clear that we cannot just "quote the passage". By the same regard, it is also possible that your channeled message has mistake. The way you defend your channeling was just the same unsettling to me as the way Dick Hein made his quotes. :-) I think we should all "take a step back" and find the middle (if not neutral) ground.

 

> I have been seeing Michael Channeling as a way to help us construct
> beliefs that in turn create our reality. It has evolved for me to become
> a tool of exploration. I am not using the Channeling Process as a way to
> collect factual data.

 

If I could channel Michael, I would go for factual data. :-) It might be the pragmatist in me, though I'm not a Scholar (but a Sage). I believe that certain type of factual data would also help, immensely, as a tool for growth, including spiritual growth.

 

> Channeling has opened a lot of doors for me and I may just be going down
> a hallway that nobody has gone done yet (it could be a dead end too). If
> I find some goodies in there and bring them back to the main hallway to
> share and they are immediately rejected because they are a little out of
> synch with the information in the main library then maybe something is lost.
>
> Thanks for your response

 

What I feel is that you are treating these "goodies" as your own invention, or your own creation. It was just something you discovered, or channeled. Not from you the person. Perhaps it is my "Old Soul age" speaking, but you should be detached from something not created by you. Even detached from something that was created by you. I mean, what is done, is done. What is said, is being laid out for others to examine. If it holds up to light, fine. :-) If it does not, no great lost. We are all in the creative process anyway. There are bound to be improvements and rejections along the way.

Thanks for your response, too. :-)

Regards.


Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:54:04 EST
Subject: Re: Ted Fontaine's views on karma

Geez, Louise, this thread is working my last nerve!

Dick, may I gently suggest that you remember the #1 'rule' about channeled info? Channels are not infallible, and even the best one on the best day is maybe 80% accurate (I KNOW that's in a Michael book, but I just don't care to look up which one). Michael constantly reminds us to self validate all the info, and arguing over quotes reminds me also of a scriptural debate. I can see that you take the material very seriously, and that it has great meaning to you. There is a quote from Alan Watts about Christians that I like very much. To paraphrase, it says that Jesus meant to be a signpost on the road, and that Christians had climbed up the sign instead of going down the road. All channels are just people, and as much as I like Jose, I don't treat every line of his books as gospel. (Not trying to pick on Jose, just an example). Use what works for you, and ignore the rest. Someone else may feel differently about a particular item, and benefit greatly from something that left you cold, and vice versa.

One of the things I like most about the information from Michael is that it gives a structure to things that is inclusive rather than exclusive. Our physical, time-bound brains are just not capable of seeing the biggest picture. We are also forced to communicate through language, and metaphor is about the best we can hope for when seeking answers to the big questions. I thought Ted's 'karma exchange' METAPHOR was very nicely done, and I was quite moved by it. In other words, for me it resonated deeply, and aided my 'remembering'. I was amazed when it was attacked the way it was. IMHO, 'wrong' and 'right', 'correct' and 'incorrect' has no place here. I'd certainly hate to get divisive over soul age in this forum, but this kind of argument makes this old soul very tired.

 

Could karma then not be exchanged during the planning stage of a new
incarnation?

 

Not according to Michael as documented in published literature.
From _Messages_ ->>

I think that all is flexible depending on the needs and desires of essence. If all involved are in agreement at an essence level when planning this sort of thing, I believe that anything goes. The structure that Michael gives us is symbolic, the boxes are not really there. Wherever you find an 'always' or a 'never', there will be some hardy fragment out there crossing the line. Something about seeing Michael debated 'as documented in published literature' makes my skin crawl.

As to the karma/walkin debate, I know two walkins very well (some of my best friends are walkins ;) ). One of them has several children, and she did not disown those children when she walked in. Rather, she had been around the walkout closely during her lifetime, and she has continued to mother those children and grandchildren. In many ways she certainly has kept some agreements and karma going. I know another walkin who distances themselves from every possible aspect of the walkout's life, and very much treats their life as completely separate from the walkout's. Again, the individual walkin and walkout will have their own unique arrangement befitting their agreement for the swap. But I know these two walkins certainly spent a period of adjustment dealing with the bodies they inherited and the lives they 'took over'.

Ted, didn't seem to me that you had a chip on your shoulder. From my perspective, you handled some pretty harsh criticism with grace. I like what you've brought to the party!

Love to all of you, and lighten up!

Martha



 


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