Related Articles Spiritweb Michael

Spiritweb Michael List
1998 - Week 3


SUMMARY:  Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Praesent vestibulum molestie lacus. Aenean nonummy hendrerit mauris. Phasellus porta. Fusce suscipit varius mi. Cum sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus. Nulla dui.


THE POSTS:

 

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:45:51 EST
Subject: Re: Drugs and Shamanism

Marijuana has been misclassified for various reasons. A scholar friend of mine once loaned me a book years ago called "The Emperor Wears No Clothes" (I think) that details the mishandling of pot. While I seem to remember it was a little rabid on the subject, the author wrote about the DuPont company ramming marijuana's downfall through congress and the AMA chiefly to remove it as competition for their shiny new pharmaceuticals. Marijuana has been a folk remedy for many years, and I can personally attest to its usefulness with arthritis pain. Since I stopped smoking it I wake up with stiff painful hands every AM (where's that Advil)! I smoked it for many years with nary a psychedelic effect, and among my fellow smokers I never once heard of anyone who hallucinated on pot. It's also been misclassified as a narcotic. As a veteran former user, I owuld call it a mild depressant, in that it relaxes and calms you. As I mentioned before, I felt it helped distract me from my worries (goal of growth here) and was a gentler relaxant than a few cocktails!

Sorry to harp on this subject, but it always gets me going to see pot lumped in with the hard stuff. I do realize that any mood altering substance has the potential for abuse, and that some individuals will go overboard.

Time for my morning pot of caffeine!

Dave, you'll respect me but will you call?

Martha


Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:23:13 -0600
Subject: Thanks

Hi,
I just wanted to let all of you know how much I have been enjoying the last few days of correspondence. I have found the discussion on when the soul enters the body very interesting. I was extremely interested in the comments made by several you concerning knowledge as to when you felt the soul enter your baby in the womb or at birth. I had never heard before this unique relationship between a mother and child.

Although I have neve experienced the taking of drugs for recreation or spiritual insight, I did do an indepth study during the 60s and 70s. LSD has been used very effectively as part of treatments such as alcoholism. In fact, Leary was working with alcoholics in prison with LSD with the drug was made illegal--and he was having a rather successful "cure" rate. It seems that LSD is able to open up some of our inner emotions and under proper medication care is able for one to help oneself look into the psyche. But it also seems to heighten any problem, such as psychosis, thus the reason for danger for purely recreational usage.

Keep up the good work.

Bill Lanning


Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:28:39 +0000
Subject: Re: Drugs and Shamanism

> Though, the teens sure seem to love it. ;-p Can you say amotivational
> syndrome? ;-p

Bingo. Smoke a doob and become one with the couch.

John


Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:26:22 -0400
Subject: Thumbs up

Hi friends,
Seems I've suddenly been called away from my beloved computer for a few days at least.........going to Argentina (next door ) so I'll catch up with you all when I get back to Chile. We'll see what great story comes out of this assignment.
waving with all my thumbs up ( however many I've got),

love,
M' Ixchel


Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:43:49 EST
Subject: Communicating with an Unborn Child

<< If this happens (seeing a child "around" one) after an abortion, is the
same principle applicable to visions long long before conception? >>

If I'm not mistaken, when people see a child who is going to be born to them, they're usually seeing a past life of that soul when the parents knew him/her. However, our physical looks can be similar (especially around the eyes) from lifetime to lifetime, so the child could also grow up to look something like the vision.

I don't know much about astrology myself. Determining the exact moment of birth is an interesting question. I would guess it's at the first breath. Does that seem right to you mothers out there? How soon is that after the child emerges?

My birth certificate says 8:24 a.m., but Michael through JP Van Hulle said it was little earlier than that. An astrologer friend ran a few charts and we agreed that it was 8:18, which my essence confirmed (it oughta know, right?). However, Zip Dobyns, a famous astrologer, said that in her experience, the times on the certificates are usually right and they shouldn't be tampered with.

ON SIRIUS:

<< Sometimes I infer that there is a message in there from these aliens
saying humans are inferior to other species.=85Isn't all sentience equal -
notwithstanding level of soul evolution and spelling ability? >>

The Sirians are not only far better spellers than human beings, their expanded brain capacity allows them to punctuate and diagram sentences like you wouldn't believe, which clearly demonstrates their superiority, according to my spirit guide, Nanu Nanu. He happens to be Sirian himself, but I don't think he's biased.

Best,
Shepherd


Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:52:15 EST
Subject: communities

Hi Brin,

I just got a long letter from Phil regarding communities and replied to Susan @terraverde.

Yes, I agree that communities in Hawaii, Vancouver and Oregon will all be wonderful. Debbie and I just want to be in the sun most of the time. Have a place where we can grow our own food, have solar power and be near the WARM ocean. We had a channeling in Nov where Michael pointed out that we must include members who's 4 pillars can be satisfied living on and island. If someone has living in the mountains and snow as a pillar, they would not be happy on Hawaii. We must find people who love to swim in the ocean with dolphins (which we plan to do next week!) and live in a tropical environment.

I also agree with Shephard that I would much rather see shorter quotes of just the relevant lines that pertain to someone's reply vs. the whole post.

Also, pertaining to drug use in general: about 80-90% of the Michael students that I know of have used most of the mood altering drugs from pot to acid and everything in between. I have personally tried these with many students and channels in the Bay Area. I would say that the real minority are those who have not tried it based on their own fears. I would think that part of the life lesson is to face ones fears instead of avoiding them, Lori.

There are channels who use them on shamanic journeys and I have participated in one and plan to do so again. I think that the work these people are doing is very courageous since the risks theyare taking if found out by the "authorities" can be severe. I want to respect their request for anonymity and not mention names. I hold their work and shamanism in high esteem. I do not see indigenous cultures as mainly baby souls but see them as models of communities that lived in harmony with their environment, had fewer addictive behaviors, spiritual, long-lived, groups that looked out for one another, used the communal ownership model and self-sustaining. That is the community that Debbie and I plan to create.

Love and light can get so banal so I'll just say, Take that!!

Peter


Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:43:53 -0800
Subject: Re: communities

Hey there Peter....

Well I'm certainly a child of the tropics....love those warm seas. It's hard to remember at the moment in the middle of winter the feeling of sun on bare skin, needing little clothing, smelling those lush tropical scented flowers that fill the bushes and trees especially the deeper into the Pacific islands you go.... sounds good right about now.

I think there is more than just fear behind choices not to use whatever drugs are being pushed. Simply that drugs aren't needed to begin with. I remember talking about Walt Disney's creativity with someone (Walt's in the fifth entity of the cadre a lot of us are in -- called first by some, third cadre by Shepherd....) and my friend said Walt Disney had to have done drugs to be able to create fantasyland in particular, but really to have the inspiration for Disneyland at all.

It's the nature of Essence itself to be creative, to be conscious and aware, to be expansive and loving. It isn't necessary to do drugs to experience any of those states or to share them with others....

A lot of people may have tried a lot of things along the way on the path, only to realize at some point it's not the outer stuff. None of it is necessary. Life tends to ween us away from our crutches eventually -- especially if we think we need them to get somewhere or to feel something we can't otherwise experience.

Eventually we are able to live without needing drugs, or whatever to be ok, to be loving, to be creative, conscious, aware, and happy.

Love and light banal ?? hmmm. Maybe it's like eating a lot of really spicy foods -- then when you come back to what is wholesome and natural it's hard to taste it anymore. Rollercoaster stuff is certainly spicy, but eventually grows tiresome. If I were looking for a community, it would be one that enjoyed love and light....maybe even tropical light....

Best to all, Brin


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 00:15:04 +0100
Subject: Re: Drugs and Shamanism

Martha wrote:

> Marijuana has been a folk remedy for many years, and I can personally
> attest to its usefulness with arthritis pain. (...) I would call it a mild depressant,
> in that it relaxes and calms you. As I mentioned before, I felt it helped distract
> me from my worries (goal of growth here) and was a gentler relaxant than a few
> cocktails!

> Sorry to harp on this subject, but it always gets me going to see pot lumped
> in with the hard stuff.

Not only do I agree with Martha on this (I don't indulge in marijuana much though, it's expensive and illegal here in Austria), but I'd like us to remember a couple of things...1) Mankind has used mood and perception altering substances since the dawn of the species; it is a most human thing to do. 2) None of us is a position to pontificate (carefully chosen word) on the spiritual enlightenment that *someone else* may receive from this or that practise... Each of us can only speak for ourselves. And general statements are always wrong.

Peace,

Katherine Doversberger

><The real problem is; ><
><People think that life ><
><is a ladder, ><
><and it's really a wheel. ><

>< Katherine E. Doversberger ><
>< violist, fiddler and cat person ><


Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:51:33 -0800
Subject: Drugs and Spirituality (as if we need to go there again) ;-p

> Also, pertaining to drug use in general: about 80-90% of the Michael students
> that I know of have used most of the mood altering drugs from pot to acid and
> everything in between. I have personally tried these with many students and
> channels in the Bay Area. I would say that the real minority are those who
> have not tried it based on their own fears. I would think that part of the
> life lesson is to face ones fears instead of avoiding them, Lori.

Hi Peter,
Being in the minority, as it were, is nothing new to me. Sometimes, I even like it that way, as I've often felt more comfortable just following my heart to do what it is I needed to do than being a sheep following the herd. I've always been different.

There are some fears we have that need to be overcome, indeed. But if I gave you some pudding I concocted in the lab and told you that if you ate it you'd get a really great trip to a space ship behind a comet, would you do it? Or would you be suspicious of my motive, or my sanity for that matter? And suspicion, being the negative pole of skepticism, therefore based in fear, you know, is then a useful tool to save your life in that instance, isn't it? I mean, you wouldn't just go jump off a cliff in order to "get through that fear" now would you? And there are probably things in your life you probably have fears about, (like I would guess: having sex with other men would be a big one for you, no pun intended ;-p) that you just don't feel you need to do in this life, wouldn't you agree?

I'm trying to tell you that I know myself well enough to know now, as an adult, that doing psychedelics for spiritual growth isn't the path for me in this life. I've had the experience in other lives already and even Michael says to me when I ask, "It's not necessary," and of course, as you'd expect, they don't forbid or condone it. I do have a heart condition though that I take a drug for. It's a genetic condition of tachycardia that I have, and this drug that I take in a very minimal dose each day, which originally was from a plant, called digitalis, can in small quantities, slow the heart, and in large quantities, kill you. It is not a psychoactive drug though. There was a time I was going through what may have been diagnosed as post-partum depression, if I'd made it to the psychiatrist to get a diagnosis. But for some reason, I felt it was like some kind of divine intervention, something prevented me from going there and being given some psychoactive drug to relieve my symptoms. Once again, I was led to an alternative. It was hypnotherapy and some of the most transformative classes I ever took, that got me to the root of the issues, not just masking the symptoms so I could cope. Now I'm not saying that these drugs can't help people--they do, but they are not the CURE for the problem, they are merely the tools to let you cope so you can be in a mental state that allows you to get to the root of the problems. What it takes to go from there is the desire to face who you truly are and let go of the facades. My deliverance reaffirmed my inner knowing that these psychoactive drugs were not for me--not as spiritual enhancers, nor as medications. I was here this time to do it with all my faculties intact. The heart medication has been a crutch to allow me to cope and get through my issues of the heart, without major symptoms manifesting and debilitating me. I'm doing the inner work though, and I intend to be off this medication within a few years.

My body is very sensitive. It reacts and tells me when I have an emotional or spiritual imbalance. I don't need to run it over with a truck to get it when a little tap on the shoulder will do.

I have been curious about other people's experiences though, with psychoactive drugs, the scholar that I am who loves gathering information.... But no, I will not do the drugs, with you or anyone else in the Michael "community."

There have been things in my life that I knew I had to do though, to overcome fears, shame, and social imprinting, which I did do because I was obsessed about it. That's usually how I know I've got to do something--I get obsessed about it. Other things, I just need to gather information about so I can remember, and come to terms with, something within myself that maybe doesn't really have anything directly to do with what I'm doing on the outside. I feel that psychoactive drugs are one of those things that I don't need to actually do, in order to get at the part of myself I'm integrating at that moment.

The most transformative classes I ever took, we journeyed inward to the depths of our souls. I think the only thing that was affecting our mental states was the fact we got very little sleep during those intensives. Drugs not under the supervision of a doctor, even aspirin, nicotine, and caffeine, were prohibited (we all had to agree to a list of "rules" for the class and this was one of them) another one was we were not to share any of the processes with others who had not been through the trainings. Much like the things Barbara mentioned that you guys probably had signed with your teachers. These transformative classes I'm sure were just as profound I'm sure, as your shamanic journies with your drugs. The classes I took are known my different names: there's Impact Training, Harmony, and the one I took: Breakthrough Training.

I wonder though, if you ever had all your drugs taken away and you were never able to have any drugs ever again, what you would do or feel like, Peter. That scenario, I would find very interesting to study! Perhaps it sounds like a perverse curiosity, but it does intrigue me. What do you think it would be like? Does the thought scare you, even a little? I'm just really curious. :^) Your comments would be appreciated.

Lori


Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:22:57 +0000
Subject: Re: Drugs and Spirituality (as if we need to

My two cents in response to Lori's post...

The drug issue for me was a double-edged sword. I first became interested in hallucinogens at about age 12 after reading the Carlos Castaneda books <sheesh, here goes the drugs and shamanism thing again...>. I first tried marijuana at age 13, and during the period of about ages of 15-17 was using heavily. Around the time I turned 18 I finally woke up (kinda-sorta) and realized it had become habit, and I was no longer gaining anything from the experience. I in fact had become quite lethargic. So I quit. I used LSD and psilocybin a number of times from about age 15 probably until I was about 20. As I stated in another post, the psilocybin trips were beneficial, and the LSD trips were just that, trips. Lots of nifty visual stuff, and that was about it. I feel that in the absence (or in my ignorance) of other avenues of experience for me at the time, that a certain amount of this drug use was beneficial in the sense that it made me aware of other states of consciousness, and oblique angles of perception. There is definately a point though, where I had been there, done that, and should have moved on, but didn't. As I said in another post I didn't have the guidance or maturity to do so.

Lori, you are absolutely correct. That path is not for everyone. And not taking that path does not necessarily have a damn thing to do with courage. I think the Shamanism issue warrants the same comment. Some people are at place in their evolution where that is appropriate, and others are not. That doesn't make it any more or less valid. It is all relative.

I am sure there are some out there that need to experience addictions, too. Whether they be to drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, religion, whatever. We're all different. We all require different experiences.

So all shutup, and you all just go play already!

John


Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:32:34 -0500
Subject: Snow in Hawaii

Oversoul25 wrote:

[clipped]

> We had a channeling in Nov where Michael pointed out that we must
> include members who's 4 pillars can be satisfied living on and island. If
> someone has living in the mountains and snow as a pillar, they would not be
> happy on Hawaii. We must find people who love to swim in the ocean with
> dolphins (which we plan to do next week!) and live in a tropical environment.

Maybe.

I lived in Hilo on the "Big Island" of Hawaii for 6 1/2 years. During the winter there are days where you can, if you are of a mind to do so, go skiing in the morning and surfing in the afternoon, both in the same day. I could see the snow on the mountaintop from my front porch, and walk to where the surfers did their water thing. Sometimes when there was snow on the mountain some of the folks with pickup trucks would go up the mountain and come back down with a load of snow and the kids would build snowpeople and have snowball fights and eat real snowballs. There is also a live volcano there. An island very close to spirit. They hold the land as sacred. Check it out for yourself.

[clipped]

Aloha nui loa, and
Peace and Light to You and Yours,
Kenneth Broom, Columbia, MD, USA
aka I.A.M. Research
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
7th Level Old Scholar, Observation, Acceptance, Idealist,
Emotional Part of Intellectual Center, Impatience. (INFP)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:28:45 +0000
Subject: Re: Drugs and Spirituality (as if we nee

Whew, I musta been tired. This was supposed to say, "So I'll shutup..." Hmmm, maybe a Freudian slip?

> So all shutup, and you all just go play already!
>
>
> John


Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:43:44 EST
Subject: Re: communities

In a message dated 98-01-16 15:05:09 EST, Peter writes:

<< Also, pertaining to drug use in general: about 80-90% of the Michael
students that I know of have used most of the mood altering drugs from pot to acid and
everything in between. I have personally tried these with many students and
channels in the Bay Area. I would say that the real minority are those who
have not tried it based on their own fears. I would think that part of the
life lesson is to face ones fears instead of avoiding them, Lori. >>

Well, considering some of the neurotic fears people can have, I would shudder at the thought that they would all externally manifest those fears at once, no doubt in a frenzied display of teeth-gritting, eyeball popping splendor. Yikes! Can you imagine the cleanup costs after such an orgy of therapeutical explorations into fear?
Just kidding...;-p

Seriously, I would not be surprised to learn that the vast populace of Michael students are drug users. The very nature of New Age studies tends to attract people who are searching for deeper meanings in their lives, sometimes frantically peeling away the layers of their existence in order to reveal a core truth. This can often result in a journey that leads people to various kinds of experimentation; however, I believe many soon discover that "getting high" doesn't necessarily offer a real solution to their problems, and only disguises their trepidation's in a veil of temporary amnesia until they awaken and return to the sometimes brutal embrace of REAL reality. Of course, pure recreation is another matter, but that's not what we're talking about here.

Considering Peter's statement that many Michael students and channels in the Bay area use pot, acid and other avenues of mind alterations, I must say I'm unimpressed. With the exception of mild usage's of marijuana, the aforementioned drugs are potentially damaging to body tissue, not to mention their effects on the psyche, and if my lack of involvement places me in the minority, then I'm more than happy to be the subject of exclusion. Majority favor is not a symbol for truth anyway, in fact, history recalls that the greatest changes in the past, some involving our most cherished principles, have occurred when the majority was furthest from the truth, and the minority was right. Regardless, there's an old saying about maturity that states, "When the fruit is ripe it leaves the branch." Perhaps some of those Bay area channels are still a little green.

In a message dated 98-01-16 15:05:09 EST, Peter writes:

<< I have personally tried these with many students and
channels in the Bay Area. I would say that the real minority are those who
have not tried it based on their own fears. I would think that part of the
life lesson is to face ones fears instead of avoiding them, Lori. >>

You have it backwards, in my opinion. Mind altering drugs are nothing more than an elixir for the "fearful." Such potions provide a buffer to those who can't cope; a temporary shield, if you will, that protects their ailing souls from the sometimes blinding brilliance of life's harsh inquisitions. On the other hand, accepting the conditions of life is not a game for the fearful, and when the icy winds do blow, the non fearing individual will not be afraid to face into the wind and wait for the storm to pass. I'd much rather step into the light and face life's infirmities, than live in a sunless land and its blanket of mind-numbing fog.

In a message dated 98-01-16 15:05:09 EST, Peter writes:

<< There are channels who use them on shamanic journeys and I have participated
in one and plan to do so again. I think that the work these people are doing
is very courageous since the risks theyare taking if found out by the
"authorities" can be severe. >>

Courageous, or just stupid?

In a message dated 98-01-16 15:05:09 EST, Peter writes:

<< That is the community that Debbie and I plan to create. >>

From your previous descriptions it sounds like it'll be a community of stoners. Well, everyone has a right to their own path, so enjoy.

Light and Reefers,
Dave


Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:56:20 EST
Subject: Re: Drugs and Shamanism

In a message dated 1/16/98 3:15:52 PM PST, Katherine Doversberger writes:

<< .1) Mankind has used mood and perception altering substances since the dawn
of the species; it is a most human thing to do. >>

1) Mankind has exploited animals for the use of meat and labor since the dawn of the species; it's been the human thing to do, but perhaps in the next hundred years new and much needed animal rights laws will intervene.

If we strictly relied on our basic human nature, we would have annihilated this planet during the cold war. Old habits die hard, but sometimes change is good.

Dave


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:04:36 EST
Subject: drugless world

Lori wrote:

<< I wonder though, if you ever had all your drugs taken away and you were
never able to have any drugs ever again, what you would do or feel like,
Peter. That scenario, I would find very interesting to study! Perhaps
it sounds like a perverse curiosity, but it does intrigue me. What do
you think it would be like? Does the thought scare you, even a little?
I'm just really curious. :^) Your comments would be appreciated. >>

No, that thought does not scare me at all. I have gone years without taking drugs. I doubt you believe that since your paradigm doe not include a category for those who use drugs and plant medicines as a tool and leave them when they are done. You have only two categories from your first post, a) those who abstain and are strong, and b) those who use them, have horrible experiences and must be addicted.

I am really surprised by some of the assumptions made by people in this discussion among so-called enlightened, tolerant people. There seems to be an automatic assumption that anyone who uses drugs must be an addict. Most of all, what people seem to forget is that this a forum for everyone to put their own 2 bit ideas and theories.

Lori's first post on drugs started out seemingly like a request for a discussion on drugs in general. Then it quickly turned into her personal treatise on the evils of drug taking and those who use them. I have no problem with people talking about their own experiences but I do take exception when that leads them to make blanket statements and generalities on a topic she knows very little about.

<< I think it's pretty ironic, Peter, that this post you put below is
actually the most judgemental one that anyone posted so far on this topic. >>

Maybe you are taking drugs and don't know it Lori. Most people who have read your first post think it's hilariously judgmental and that my reply was more neutral. Maybe we should take a pole.

Light, laughter, and you still have my love too, (Tex gave me your message)

Peter


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:52:59 EST
Subject: Drugs, shamanism, etc.

    I have been perusing over the several postings on the above subject and feel the need to respond. First of all, in all fairness of shamanistic practices, I find it important to clear up some perceived misconceptions. These practices can be a highly enlightening and expansive opportunity one can embark on in order to facilitate various methods of expansion; be it through drumming, meditating and/or the ingesting of specific "teacher plants" that, when taken in a ceremonious fashion can be an incredibly healing experience. These plants have been, and still are regarded by shamans as powerfully healing, cleansing and can promote shifts in awareness that can be incredibly life changing. However, these plants are not to be viewed as some glibe "recreational" experience by those that choose to embark on the journey that the plants can facilitiate. In fact, these journeys are best done in a space that is held as sacrad, safe, and where there is appropriate guidance to optimize the experience. The sacredness of these journeys CANNOT be emphasized enough. Openness and willingness to shift your awareness are also helpful.

    To catagorize substances such as pot, mushrooms, LSD and other mind- bending drugs as not having any place in spiritual expansion with say, the plants that shamans use is well, to me, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Granted, the aforementioned substances are generally used for "recreational" purposes while the plants ingested for shamanic journeys are NOT recreational items per se. The INTENTION one places with any substance and/or practice plays a tremendous part in the overall effect and result one receives. And, BTW, the experience one receives when embarking on a shamanic journey WITHOUT the aid of the "teacher plants" is quite different vs. one where the teacher plants are ingested. Having been a veteran of both practices I speak from experience. You can journey to other realms and "worlds" to so speak without any plant help but nonetheless we are still hampered by this physical plane existance. The teacher plants enables one to go beyond the physical plane into other realms not generally reached just by drumming, meditating or other similar practices.

    I want to also say that we do indeed, live on the physical plane, which, vibrates at a frequency that is quite slow (which I am sure, the artisans and priests can attest to!) and so, we can in fact obtain higher states of consciousness through various means but frequencies do slow us down, as well as certain neuroproceesses that do not normally operate on "full tilt" on a regular basis; even with the supplementation of advanced breathing/meditation practices. Further, one can continually stumble and get stuck on a particular issue that stubbornly persists...or perhaps our own chief feature creates a stuckness in some area. If say, we were in a process of(or life goal of) growth and found that our everyday, mundane view of life were bogging us down and preventing our essence from moving forward, could we not then obtain help from special plants as one would do if they had a cold/flu bug coming on and needed specific herbs to facilitate healing? When the assistance of plant medicine is offered, perhaps to facilitate not only various brain centers in opening but to asisst in taking a look at the "stuff" within the instinctual center that may need clearance, would you still balk at the chance?? That, is just a brief concept of how plant medicines that do indeed, have a hallucinogenic quality can be of help. THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS DECIDING TO ROLL UP A DOOB WITH VARIOUS OTHERS OF LIKE-INTERESTS. Although, sharing this amongst friends can and does have a relaxing social effect!!
    And, one more thing, having participated in a few of Peter and Debbie's "community building" gatherings, I would hardly catagorize them as "stoner" gatherings....that is not only inaccurate but bordering on sarcasm. I do know, though...that personal issues re: the use of drugs and issues re: others' use of drugs (and that includes alcohol) and ANY PERSISTANT, UNCLEARED FEELINGS one has about that drug use can color one's perception of drugs...coming out in judgements, sarcasms, and other similar communications break-downs. This diminishes one's ability to remain open to opportunities that can promote growth, healing, and resolution of long-held but no-longer- serving patterns!

Just thought I would put my 2 cents worth in!!
-Mari Lynn


Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:15:38 -0800
Subject: Re: Incarnation and Astrology (1998-02/478)

Hi Shepherd,

Excellent post, as usual -

| A body can actually exist for a time with no soul, like a car idling.
| However, after a while, it will die if no soul takes it.

I've heard this before. Can you give an approximate time frame? Are we talking hours, days, weeks, months?

Thanks,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/M5=26/IME/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.


Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:15:56 -0800
Subject: Re: validation of Michael statements (1998-02/486)

| From: Jeanne Holley
|
| I know I get a little hard nosed about the original teachings, mainly
| through a fear that they will become garbled and diluted and I have "for
| myself" validated much of the original. Time to grow now and I'll work
| very hard with any and all new material (as soon as I can get my hands
| on it).

Considering that, after =choice=, the thing most stressed by Michael is =validation=, it is not inappropriate, IMO, to be cautious and skeptical of any of the new information that is coming through if it disagrees with what has previously resonated.

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/M5=26/IME/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 05:08:48 EST
Subject: Re: communities (Disney)

In a message dated 98-01-16 15:44:13 EST, Brin writes:

<< I remember talking about Walt Disney's creativity with someone (Walt's in the
fifth entity of the cadre a lot of us are in -- called first by some, third
cadre by Shepherd....) and my friend said Walt Disney had to have done
drugs to be able to create fantasyland in particular, but really to have
the inspiration for Disneyland at all. >>

Isn't that a ridiculously absurd premise? To think that Walt Disney had to get stoned in order to unleash his creativity. The man had a gift for imagination and worked hard to achieve his dreams. Lets not forget that he also employed a crack team (no pun intended) of "imagineers" as they are called, who teamed together to continuously add a constant influx of ideas to the project that later resulted in Disneyland.
I'm not speaking in generalities here, as I've been a long time fan and scholar of Disney since I was a kid. (Possibly due to being 5th entity myself.)

This was an excellent post, Brin.

Dave


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:58:26 EST
Subject: Drugs, shamanism, etc. and a new question

Hi Mari Lynn - loved your post. In fact, it made me realize that there could possibly be a point down the road when I would be interested in maybe trying one of this facilitated trips. You synthesized a lot of of stuff and gave me a deeper understanding of why someone like me (frequency of 30 and goal of growth) would find pot good for both recreation and mediatation. Maybe the low frequency is why I never hallucinated during my psychedelic experimentation phase. And as I type this in the early AM with my hands aching from arthritis, I find I miss the blessed weed today.

Peter also made an excellent point that I have found to be true as well, that those who have strong anti-drug judgments tend to lump all users in the same group. This is the same as putting the person who has an occasional glass of wine in with the alcoholics. And speaking of alcohol.... We haven't been speaking of alcohol much in this debate, have we. It is just as much a mind/mood altering drug as the others! I have never wrecked a car, slept with a stranger, beaten someone in a drunken rage, called old boyfriends at 3 AM, thrown up all morning, had a hangover, or otherwise done wildly inappropriate things under the influence of pot. Not that I have done all of those things while drinking either, just trying to make a point! ;)

Off the subject, I've been thinking about devas lately and would like to throw the subject out to discuss if anyone's interested. Other than what I've read in Jose's books, I don't know too much about them. This came up for me because I have a small dreamcatcher on the wall that fascinated Morgan at an early age. I asked Michael about it and was told she was seeing devas in the feathers. Last night I was thinking about it for no apparent reason and looked at Morgan and said "dreamcatcher". My 14 month old turned and pointed at the dreamcatcher, which we have not looked at together in months. Of course she's brilliant (no bias here!) but clearly it made an impression on her. I understand devas associate with things in nature, but why would devas be in feathers hanging on my bedroom wall, years away from the bird?

Martha


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:36:23 EST
Subject: Re: devas; drugs

One of the very finest books about devas and certainly about the most compelling and exciting spiritual biography I've read is "Behaving As If the God in All Things Really Mattered" by Machaelle Small Wright. Anyone who feels life is a challenge should read about what she went through as a teenager when she was suddenly deliberately abandoned by her parents in a strange town.

Drugs....I smoked my share of pot until about 1970. It didn't usually have much of an effect on me. I much preferrred the high of alcohol. I know a lot of people who took up pot as an act of social rebellion in the '60s at a time when social rebellion was really in order.....just like my parents' generation who are alcoholics from being rebels during Prohibition, and just like so many smokers who start smoking as an act of rebellion at the oppression of teenage life. I used to smoke, and at some point I could tell that the pleasure in it came in the process of lighting up, in moving a cigarette around with my hand in various mannerisms. As soon as the smoke hit my mouth and lungs it was always unpleasant, but the "act" of smoking gave pleasure.

With all these things I think we should be open to allowing ourselves to take control over our habits, whether they are of action or thought, because the more rigidly we solidify habit patterns the less free and alive we are. If we relabel habit patterns by calling them "rituals" we may be engaging in self deception, for any real ritual is freely chosen and done in an aware, not mechanical, state.

Our bodies are basically planet Earth primate animals with many extraterrestrial genetic additions and modifications (as Lori said and as many excellent sources agree) to support a higher level of sentient brain activity and many other improvements. As far as I know there are no animal creatures of any sort on this planet who are attracted to breathe smoke. It is poisonous. Animal bodies all breathe in order to take in oxygen and expel CO2 and other wastes. Ingesting smoke is not part of the program. Ingesting hot and concentrated smoke also is destructive to the tissues in the body which the hot smoke contacts.

Some people in the past in much darker and denser times probably discovered that breathing dense smoke was a sort of pleasurable act of rebellion against the fearful materialism of life. They activated new parts of their "brain- wiring" and transcended some usual limitations. It could maybe even have been a healthy ritual if done on rare special occasions and not to excess (and not without hundreds of chemical additives)

But smoking anything is destructive to the body, no matter what rationalization is created to justify that destruction. I prefer to be as healthy as I can so that I can have more options in life to choose from and so that my vibrations are generally higher than, say, if I were an addict or dying of cancer. I recognize the right of people to freely choose to experience poor health, shorter lifespans, and the challenge of mastering addictions and self-karma in general. Part of that challenge is the sorting out of the maya and rationalizations that are used to justify self-destructive actions.

So if we choose to be self-destructive, let's at least be honest about it.

All the best, Ed


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:58:42 -0500
Subject: Re: devas; drugs

Ed wrote:

[clipped]

> So if we choose to be self-destructive, let's at least be honest about it.

Excellent post, Ed.

I wish I had realized all this stuff about alcohol, pot, etc, before I started those body-destructing activities in college. And I am extremely grateful that I have finally stopped doing them before any more damage was done. My essence said it had nothing to do with what I did... that it was, all of it, my choice. I guess I might now be a 54.6 level <G> old scholar if I hadn't done drugs, etc. :>)# Anyhoo, it felt like fun at the time except for the hangovers and burnouts and headaches and memory losses and unpaid bills and friends insulted, etc. I just accounted an appoximation of what I have spent on alcohol and cigarettes from age 20 to age 53. It was at least $250,000 dollars. A cool quarter mill.

Was it worth it...? NO WAY!

Peace and Light to You and Yours,
Kenneth Broom, Columbia, MD, USA
aka I.A.M. Research
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
7th Level Old Scholar, Observation, Acceptance, Idealist,
Emotional Part of Intellectual Center, Impatience. (INFP)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:57:32 -0800
Subject: Re: finding a book

Carla,
    Check the online bookstore at Amazon
    They can find many hard-to-find books and ship to you via a credit card order.

--
Barbara Taylor


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 09:24:51 +0000
Subject: Re: devas; drugs

> I wish I had realized all this stuff about alcohol, pot, etc, before I started those
> body-destructing activities in college.

How about diet?

Man, Harvey Milk and those twinkies. Go figure!

John


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:48:49 -0500
Subject: Re: devas; drugs

John Rogers wrote:

> How about diet?

Geez. I had forgotten about the food I ate back then. I remember loving steaks and chops and the pork roasts, and especially the fat around these. I actually ate the fat. It was like a delicacy to me, it was so delicious. I also loved bacon cheeseburgers, and for my birthdays I would treat myself to a whole pound of fried bacon, which was a dream of mine when I was a kid. I was aware of, but paid no attention at all to the chemicals that these animal products were laced with. It's a real wonder that my body is as healthy as it is right now.

Peace and Light to You and Yours,
Kenneth Broom, Columbia, MD, USA
aka I.A.M. Research
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
7th Level Old Scholar, Observation, Acceptance, Idealist,
Emotional Part of Intellectual Center, Impatience. (INFP)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:41:22 -0800
Subject: Re: Dolphins and whales (1998-02/497)

| From: Mixchel
|
| Hi, me again
|
| Thanks Dick for sharing this info. two more questions come to mind.
| One, who then are the dolfins and whales? What is their purpose with us?
| I have contact in my dream state with an orca and with a dolfin. But the
| dolfin and I seem to be linked somehow. I feel in my body things that
| happen to the dolfin's body. Perhaps this is just another sensitivity
| thing that sometimes happens when I am participating with healing.

Possibly. About the only reference I recall is that dolphins and whales (cetaceans) are ensouled as are we. Except for a few gorillas now starting to have sentience, humans and cetaceans are the only ensouled species on Earth.

| If the past and future are happening simultaneously then isn't it possible
| that that future could be happening now.

My understanding goes like this - on the non-physical planes, time as we experience it here does not exist. There is an experience or perception of evolution, but it does not have the constraints of physical-plane time. For me this concept is somewhat difficult to grasp, since all of my active memories are of living in an environment where time does exist. To try to understand what it might be like on non-physical planes, I envision those things we perceive as time-based as being in a gigantic database. Essence picks a spot in this database, which includes not only characteristics of geography but also of time, in which to experience a life. So from the perspective of the database, all experiences are present. But from the physical plane where we are, they are not.

This quote from _Michael's People_ might help to clarify -

While it is not easy for us to express how we experience time on the mid-causal plane, we will attempt to provide a frame of reference through a series of metaphors. Assume, if you will, that all time on the physical plane is a multi-million-strand "braid". The point where the braid is being braided is what is perceived by you as the present. The unbraided strands are the choices of the future, the braided strands are the past. This is not a static image, however, for the perception is only partly physical. Those aspects that partake of other planes of existence and perception are within the framework of those planes and are therefore not the concrete matter associated with the physical plane. To say that we are "above" the braid is not wholly correct, but we are not within it. We have referred to the tapestry, the weaving that is the physical-plane manifestation of the Tao. That weaving is all the braids moving together, their intersections and their patterns. Each braid passes from physical plane to astral plane and back again many, many times, as lives are undertaken. While the braid is off the physical plane, it is partially removed from time. It is continuous, however, and uninterrupted, which is why no fragment is able to "return" as its own grandparent. Evolution moves only one way; otherwise it would not be evolution. /79

I think this is another instance of concepts we don't have vocabulary for and thus have difficulty understanding.

| And part of that future could be to return to this now to help the thems
| in their past that were/are currently humans? Meaning that the whale I
| enteract with could be a future me helping out a past it when it was a
| human.

Not impossible, I suppose. There might, however, be a more likely explanation.

| This time thing can get ... very confusing...

Indeed.

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/M5=26/IME/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:41:29 -0800
Subject: Re: Parallels, Validation, Task Companions (1998-02/508)

| From: ShepherdH
|
| > Recall that a parallel universe is split from another universe; it's a
| > bit like a branch. At the time of the split, you effectively go two
| > ways at the same time. So whatever you were before the split, in
| > terms of gender, overleaves, etc., you are in both branches after the
| > split. Subsequent to that, of course, the two paths will diverge to
| > some extent.
|
| My understanding is that in the beginning, no one parallel is the trunk,
| but that when planning a lifetime and choosing a set of overleaves,
| essence manifests its plan in a variety of parallels, in a variety of
| circumstances. The overleaves and basic life task are the same in all
| of them, but if, say, a male body isn't available in one parallel, the
| soul will accept a female body. So the female body might account for
| approximately 2% of a person's parallels (whereas he/she might have been
| female in approximately 39% of his/her past lifes).

This is definitely new info; thanks.

| Then, once the game begins, new parallels spin off as significant forks
| in the road are reached, and when a parallel becomes redundant, it
| recombines with another that has become essentially the same. The
| cosmos practices a remarkable economy of energy.
|
| The "trunk" lives are those that are "mainstream" for that lifetime.
| For example, if a person is a married engineer with two or three kids in
| many of his parallels, that scenario is his "trunk." He might also be a
| starving artist in a couple parallels--that is a fringe scenario. In
| some of his engineer parallels, he might have dreamed of being an artist
| but felt that he couldn't follow that path; the fringe parallels are
| where he pursued those longshots.

This confirms prior info.

| BTW, I personally would find it easier to read the Digest if letters
| quoted only those few lines of other posts that they are specifically
| responding to, rather than the whole posts. Anyone else feel that way?

That practice is part of common "netiquette".

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/M5=26/IME/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:41:39 -0800
Subject: Re: Drugs and Shamanism (1998-02/538)

| From: Dave
|
| Mankind has exploited animals for the use of meat and labor since the
| dawn of the species; it's been the human thing to do, but perhaps in the
| next hundred years new and much needed animal rights laws will
| intervene.

The following quotes are from _Earth to Tao_ by JosÚ Stevens -

Minerals, gemstones, plants, and animals all have powers that, if
asked for, can dramatically increase your effectiveness in the
world. When you become consciously aware of their properties you
increase multifold the power that they have to help you.

The elemental kingdoms give of themselves freely and actively have
courted man's company for the sake of their own evolution. There is
an agreement between the two that states that they will work for the
mutual benefit of one another. Due to ignorance and greed man has
often not kept his part of the bargain and this throws the natural
balance off. When you consciously use the physical kingdoms with
mutual benefit in mind you keep the agreement and further the
evolution of both. /94

You co-inhabit the planet with the animal kingdom, whom you have
agreed to assist on their evolutionary path. In exchange for your
good will the animal kingdom has agreed to assist you in a variety
of ways. On the purely physical level animals agree to provide you
with food products as well as skins and decorative parts for your
appropriate use. Animals offer their labor in exchange for care and
compassion. On a spiritual level animals have agreed to provide you
with knowledge, wisdom, and energetic assistance for your guidance
and inspiration. /101

Apparently not all is exploitation.

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/M5=26/IME/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:39:33 EST
Subject: Re: devas, drugs, food

Dear Ken -- I also used to do gross things with fat...my favorite was to slurp down bacon grease from the frying pan when it was cool enough not to burn.

But I ran across so many good reasons to go in a vegetarian and vegan direction, and not the least was that on average I liked them a lot better as people than the heavier meat eaters. They had a vibration that I liked better even if I couldn't explain it scientifically.

I never as a child or later could understand the logic of why whoever designed this universe would arrange it so that one species was supposed to live by stealing another species' mother's milk. Or. for that matter, drinking milk after infancy. No other species does that. I grudgingly conformed just a little with our absurd practices of stealing milk from calves and then allowing it to spoil and stink horribly as with cheese. Vomit smelled just as disgusting but wasn't regarded as a gourmet delicacy....

Probably the widespread osteoporosis in the elderly is connected to our excessive use of cow's milk, which has a lot more phosphorus and less magnesium and calcium than human milk. People who drink lots of cow's milk as children usually grow to be taller than their parents' generation, and I suspect that a lot of that milk is used to form bigger and longer bones than the body's genetic program intended it to have. Later on the body can't sustain the extra bone structure and has to demineralize them radually. This is just my theory, nothing I've read.

While we can digest and get energy from many kinds of foods, and this is a helpful adaptation, especially for people in cold climates who need lots of calories. it's pretty clear that our bodies' best natural food is fruit, including what we call vegetables that are actually fruits, such as tomatoes, squash, avocados, berries, and so on. We naturally have all the enzymes necessary to easily digest and assimilate these with minimal energy cost, while almost everything else we eat comes with substantial costs and disadvantages that we choose to overlook because our culture values refinement in the culinary arts as a higher good than being healthy and eating in a simple, nutritious, "boring" way.

So, just as I was saying with regard to drugs and smoking and other self- destructive practices....it's all free choice, and younger souls don't particularly care about or put high priority on having a long and healthy life because they are absorbed in other things. Our culture is very heavily attached to lots of dysfunctional and unhealthy practices but we are so good at creating exciting mayas of self-deceptions (and, of course, endless dishonest advertising and PR and paid-for "science") that it just seems too hard to walk away from the foolish mainstream.

All the best, Ed


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:09:09 +0000
Subject: Re: devas, drugs, food

> Our culture is very heavily attached to lots of dysfunctional and > unhealthy practices but we are so good at creating exciting mayas > of self-deceptions (and, of course, endless dishonest advertising > and PR and paid-for "science") that it just seems too > hard to walk away from the foolish mainstream.

I don't think that it's necessarily hard to walk away.

I think it's just too easy not to change, we are creatures of habit, and when you get down to it, we're all pretty fucking lazy.

Pass me the bong, the ho-hos, and a big gulp please.

Excuse me while I become one with the couch.

Oh, and I can't reach the remote from here. Could you get me that too?

What? There's a five pound gold nugget laying in the yard?

Well, I can go pick that up later.

John


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:37:20 EST
Subject: Drugs, Bodies Without a Soul

I have seen a lot of truth in ALL the posts about drug use. There IS harm to the body in extensive use of any drug, and the possibility of destructive habits or additictions being formed. AND Drugs used intelligently and carefully, with high intent, can be useful tools for some people. AND people with delicate bodies might not want to expose themselves to the risks of taking them. AND drugs may not be ultimately necessary--but then, no tool is ultimately necessary; however, we're going to use tools of some kind here on the physical plane. AND those who use illegal drugs might be being courageous in using a tool they think will help themselves and others grow, despite the legal risks--or them might be foolishly ignoring the risks. AND.

<< | A body can actually exist for a time with no soul, like a car idling.
| However, after a while, it will die if no soul takes it.

I've heard this before. Can you give an approximate time frame? Are we talking
hours, days, weeks, months? >>,

I don't know, but I'll ask Michael.

Best,
Shepherd


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:12:29 EST
Subject: Re: drugless world

In a message dated 98-01-17 01:05:19 EST, Peter writes:

<< I am really surprised by some of the assumptions made by people in this
discussion among so-called enlightened, tolerant people. There seems to be
an automatic assumption that anyone who uses drugs must be an addict. Most of
all, what people seem to forget is that this a forum for everyone to put
their own 2 bit ideas and theories. >>

I haven't seen it stated here that addictions were heavily emphasized other than in your own defensive "sounding" comments. The main focus was on the usefulness of drugs in spirituality and in their aptitude for solving personal problems. Lori NEVER inplied that people who use drugs were necessarily addicted, and either did I.

Also, I haven't seen it said here that certain individuals could not share their opinions. If we didn't have opposite points of view, it wouldn't be a very interesting list, now would it?

<< Maybe you are taking drugs and don't know it Lori. Most people who have
read your first post think it's hilariously judgmental and that my reply was more
neutral. Maybe we should take a pole. >>

Ah, yes...the majority laughing at the minority opinion. Big deal! Face it. Lori's post put you on the defensive. One of the first signs of a destructive disorder is to laugh at the truth, even though your hair is on fire.

Dave


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:42:16 EST
Subject: Re: Animal exploitation

In a message dated 98-01-17 13:43:34 EST, Dick writes:

<< On the purely physical level animals agree to provide you
with food products as well as skins and decorative parts for your
appropriate use. Animals offer their labor in exchange for care and
compassion. On a spiritual level animals have agreed to provide you
with knowledge, wisdom, and energetic assistance for your guidance
and inspiration. /101

Apparently not all is exploitation.

Regards,
Dick >>

During the age when shamanic beliefs were developing, such concepts might have been true. Mankind had a deeper undertanding and respect for nature that is largely missing in today's societal exploitation and wasteful consumption of resources, and there was also a spiritual alliance with the animal kingdom that condoned taking what was needed, in terms of meat and skins, to ensure its survival.

However, in the 20th century, this is no longer the case.

We now live in a society where an average Leghorn chicken, whose wingspan is 26 inches, lives its tramatized existence in an area of 6 inches.

We now live in a society where three 700 plus pound pigs are confined to a space the size of a twin bed.

We now live in a society where the reason today's veal is so tender is because they are never allowed to take a single step.

We now live in a society where cats, dogs, and monkeys are routinely held captive in cages, then subjected to cruel experiments and dissected while they are alive, all under the watchful eye of scientific inquiry.

We now live in a society where the dominant fastfood chain brags over 60 million sold, but doesn't have the guts to say over 50 million butchered.

And we now live in a society where this same fastfood chain's clown tells our children that hamburgers come from hamburger patches, but doesn't tell them the truth -- hamburgers are ground up cows who've had their throats slit by machetes or their brains bashed out by sledge hammers!

The delicate balance between man and animal is LOST. This relationship is totally about expoitation!

Dave


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 17:12:50 -0600
Subject: Re: Parallels, Validation, Task Companions (1998-02/508)

> | From: Shepherd
> |
> |(Very large snip)
> |
> | The "trunk" lives are those that are "mainstream" for that lifetime.
> | For example, if a person is a married engineer with two or three kids in
> | many of his parallels, that scenario is his "trunk." He might also be a
> | starving artist in a couple parallels--that is a fringe scenario. In
> | some of his engineer parallels, he might have dreamed of being an artist
> | but felt that he couldn't follow that path; the fringe parallels are
> | where he pursued those longshots.

In other words, perhaps my feeling of kinship with Shirley McLaine could mean I'm just one of her parallel lives? We were both in the theatre, she made it, I gave it up (to raise my son away from New York City), we both sought enlightenment (she all over the world, me in my own back yard, because I couldn't afford to travel to Peru and India), there are some similarities in looks (a few times remarked upon by others). That does somewhat frighten me. It makes me feel as though I might just be a shadow person. Have any of you looked at it from the perspective of being the shadow person?

Love and trepidation :-))

Jeanne Holley


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:20:56 -0800
Subject: 'Drugs, Bodies Without a Soul' (1998-02/556)

Dick wrote:

<< | A body can actually exist for a time with no soul, like a car idling.
| However, after a while, it will die if no soul takes it.

I've heard this before. Can you give an approximate time frame? Are we
talking hours, days, weeks, months? >>

I don't know, but I'll ask Michael.

Best,
Shepherd


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:21:03 -0800
Subject: Re: Animal exploitation

| From: Dave
|
| In a message dated 98-01-17 13:43:34 EST, Dick writes:
|
| << On the purely physical level animals agree to provide you
| with food products as well as skins and decorative parts for your
| appropriate use. Animals offer their labor in exchange for care and
| compassion. On a spiritual level animals have agreed to provide you
| with knowledge, wisdom, and energetic assistance for your guidance
| and inspiration. /101
|
| Apparently not all is exploitation. >>
|
| During the age when shamanic beliefs were developing, such concepts
| might have been true. Mankind had a deeper undertanding and respect for
| nature that is largely missing in today's societal exploitation and
| wasteful consumption of resources, and there was also a spiritual
| alliance with the animal kingdom that condoned taking what was needed,
| in terms of meat and skins, to ensure its survival.
|
| However, in the 20th century, this is no longer the case.
|
| The delicate balance between man and animal is LOST. This relationship
| is totally about expoitation!

I don't argue the point that today's relationship between humans and animals is a far cry from that described in the excerpts I quoted. But I was responding to your stating -

Mankind has exploited animals for the use of meat and labor since the dawn of the species...

So aren't we talking apples and oranges?

It's also apparent that the animal kingdom is taking steps to strike back at our inappropriate use of their resources. To wit: "mad cow" disease, the recent "bird flu", and maybe others.

In a group channel session in March 1996, someone raised a topic for which I took the following notes -

Cow plague early next century - next 20 years. Start slowly - some people can't eat beef - develop enzyme allergy - get sick. Michael also said that cows are getting to the point where they don't like being a food source. The e-coli events seen recently are the start.

Regards,
Dick [2.1(3)/5/4.2-144=4.7.3<5.150/M5=26/IME/4.11>]
----------------------------------------------------
Dick Hein / Mountain View, California.


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:35:31 -0800
Subject: Peter's drugless world

Dear Peter,

After reading all you said, it's become clear to me that this issue really has nothing to do with drugs at all, nor does it have anything to do with me nor my opinions about it.

What it is about is your need to place blame on others for your insecurities, and your subconscious desire to have others deal with your stuff for you so you can keep it in denial. Your martyrdom has you wrapped around its finger and you just don't want to acknowledge it. I'm merely a trigger that mirrored to you your pent-up anger and resentments, and you've seen fit to make yourself look superior by vindicating yourself on my foibles.

Martyrdom has an uncanny knack for proving that you are right, and nothing I or anyone else say is going to change your reasons, so I will stop playing your game now. People in martyrdom like to pull everyone else down into their suffering--but I'm not going there with you.

Like I've told you before, I know you do have some good insights on life to share with people when you get out of your negative poles. It's obvious to me that drugs certainly have not assisted you in this area.

I do hope you find your path and that life is good for you. Good bye.

Blessings to you,
Lori


Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 03:35:27 EST
Subject: Kate McMurry's Discussion on Drugs

DISCUSSION ABOUT DRUGS
Written 1/11/98 by Kate McMurry

First, Dave, I loved all your posts, and especially your informative post on drug usage terminology. :)

Lori and Ed, I pretty much stand in complete agreement with what you said. Great posts! :)

I'm going to respond to both threads, my own personal experiences and opinions about drugs and the idea of "judgment" as something negative and fearful to be avoided at all costs. In regard to the latter, I've gone a step farther and extended the discussion into talking about a possible need for the positive pole of judgment/discrimination in the life of a mature human being.

As for me, I am 46, and therefore was a "child of the 60s." As such, I was around when people were still strongly convinced that most of their drug usage was "for spiritual" and "mind expansion" purposes. (Have you ever noticed that even now, it is early Baby Boomer (born 1940s to early 50s) Old Souls who are most likely to give themselves and others this very moral and self-justifying excuse for their drug usage? Younger people who started drugs from the mid-70s on are more likely to admit they get high because it feels good and takes away the pain of living.)

During the year between my 18th and 19th birthday, I tried LSD twice, did not hallucinate, but felt a lot of teeth-gritting physical intensity and hated the experience. Found nothing "spiritual" about it. It brought me down. I tried hashish once, marijuana two or three times, had one puff on a cigarette (gag), got drunk once on purpose to see what it felt like (as disgusting to me as drugs), and once by accident (discovering I can get drunk on as little as 1 tbsp. of liqueur). My only hallucination experience was one try at mescaline. Saw a diver coming at me on a big wave. It was my one and only "visual."

I feel very blessed that drugs have never been a pleasant experience for me. Because of that, I have not been tempted to use them and do major damage to my body. It has been documented in minute detail for decades now the intense destruction that drugs do to the body. (One might truthfully claim that they are toxic chemicals just like environmental pollutants, and/or that have all the lethal "side effects" of medical drugs. Thus, it is particularly ironic to me that many of the OS Baby Boomers who use drugs also are into a "natural" lifestyle, using organic foods and often vegetarian because meat is "toxic.")

The upshot is this: since recreational drugs (including alcohol and cigarettes) negatively impact every aspect of the body, from the liver to the brain, and all the organs in between, I believe that though people may justify taking drugs as an act of "love" for the mind or spirit, doing so is actually an act of overt violence (and at the very least extreme disrespect, even hatred) for the body.

Unfortunately, when people find drugs to be a very enjoyable experience (and, at least initially, before the body habituates, many, many people do), it is hard to remember (or care) that they harm the body. The immediate rush of pleasure that the body itself seems to be experiencing (and demanding more of) seems to be worth the price in destroyed health later on.

In my experience as an old soul spending most of this incarnation around fellow old souls, we OS's are particularly prone to abuse drugs because (a) we are nearing the end of the cycle and have one foot on the physical plane and the other in the spiritual realms, and, as such, are poorly committed to the body--it is so "physical" it is beneath our respect and care. So, in this POV, whatever destruction is done to the body by drugs is well worth it if it can keep the doors to the spiritual realms wide open. (b) Old souls, esp. in a young soul society like this, tend to feel like misfits and outcasts, and as such can't wait to "get the hell off this horrible, pain-filled planet." Thus, the temporary solace of drugs can seem like a god-send.

Something that can often help to "wake up" people about drugs (if they will permit themselves such a potentially shame-inducing experience) is to allow themselves to multiple times (or at least once) experience being "straight" around other people who are "high." This isn't easy to do, of course, or even safe, if one is an addict, because the temptation to take a toke oneself or at the least strive for a "contact high" is very strong. But if one can do it, it soon becomes very evident how delusional most of the "high" individuals are about the drug-induced "revelations" they are having. Straight, one can witness the glazed eyes, the drooling lips, the babbling and doodling that is done in the name of "genius" and "inspiration." Straight, one can witness the clutching, pawing, crazed giggling, and nonsensical dialogue that passes for "witty repartee" and "intimacy" at drug and alcohol parties (or even at "spiritual" circles where ritualized taking of hallucinogens occurs).

IMO, something that can happen (and often does), that is particularly tragic is when two people (I'll give a heterosexual example, but it can happen to gays as well), make a "romantic" connection on drugs. In my observation (and experience, sadly), what is happening, almost invariably, is that the drug high in one person (who is normally in varying degrees inhibited and socially inept) is talking to the drug high in the other person (who also is normally inhibited and socially inept). In the process, the drug-induced selves really "get it on." So much so that these two have sex. The next morning, they wake up in bed together--or under a table in the living room among stale spilled wine, cigarette buts and marijuana roaches. In the cold light of day, sober and bleary-eyed, they discover they can't remember all that much either about the mind-boggling conversation they shared or the sex they engaged in. Certainly whatever "intimacy" they felt while under the influence of their drug of choice is long gone now. Cold sober, all they know is that their mouths feel like the bottom of an outhouse, they desperately need a shower, and they want to go home. A few days or weeks later, while trying to get rid of the crabs or gonorrhea or fetus the wonderful drug-induced "intimacy" brought them (because they were too stoned to use protection), they might briefly, between slugs of alcohol or tokes of dope, question, "Gee, wonder why I thought that experience was so great?" But that kind of introspection is only a brief aberration in a drug-habit-filled life. Why bother to learn from experience (or feel the pain it might bring if felt too deeply), when the next toke or drink will take it away?

I could bring up all the times that people do their "elevating" drug of choice while driving 3000-lb. rolling machines of destruction on the highway. All the pain and suffering and death this results in.

I could also bring up that parents who indulge in addictive behavior in front of their children (who revel in it in fact), are setting their children up to follow in their footsteps. To live a life of immaturity and social and ethical irresponsibility. I could also mention the fact that the release of inhibitions that comes from drugs often means that the children that habitual (or even sometime) drug users produce are frequently unplanned. As a result, drug-using parents tend to have little or no parenting skill. And if the drug habit is paramount, they have little dedication to give to caring for their children, since all their time and attention is taken up by their habit. Using drugs and alcohol can also release inhibitions that are extremely unsavory. A huge percentage of incest incidents in families (and some child abuse experts believe that as many as 30% of all families have this terrible crime within them) occur while the parent is abusing alcohol or drugs. "Stoned" parents are also more likely to not control their "free-floating" rage, and as a result, "brutal alcoholics" are perpetrators of often terrible, violent child abuse. Many of the children are maimed or die.

And for the record, I believe that an addiction to food, while in some ways less serious than drug addiction, can also be life threatening in the long term, just as drug usage is life threatening in the long term. There have been decades of documentation of the damage of an unhealthy diet and what even as little as 10% excess body fat can do to heart health, diabetes and cancer risk. Certainly, one is far less likely to overdose on food than drugs. And food actually calms people down rather than making them more likely to resort to violence, as alcohol and many drugs do. But food addiction is a very serious problem in this country. One shared by as many as 30-50% of our population. It can be simply defined as "living to eat" vs. "eating to live."

I have seen innumerable examples over the years of old guard, unreconstructed, OS hippies who are still doing drugs after almost 30 years "for spiritual reasons." And many of the women, even up into their late 40s even, are still popping out babies. Sometimes spaced as much as 10-15 years apart (long lags between "accidents"). Many of them have had their homes broken up, multiple times, due to infidelity (it is easy to feel close to others under drug influence, and easier still to act on that and have sex and break up the home--or conceive an illegitimate child). Or they have tried to carry on the charade of "open marriage." Many of them have experienced the cops breaking in their doors and violently searching the house for their stash in front of their young children (often because their dear "friends" and drug buddies, who got busted themselves, turned them in to the cops to get a lesser sentence).

Of course, one might say, "That's all exaggerated emotionalism. There are tons of drug users who hurt no one." Certainly anything is possible. But I'm not sure how a drug abuser can avoid hurting others unless they are derelicts on the street with no job (no coworkers to let down by not pulling their weight), no family (no one to hurt by uncontrolled rage, irresponsibility, or indifference), and no pets (whose basic care is neglected while under the influence).

What about long-term usage of marijuana, the "gentle" drug? There's been over 30 years of research on that one now. The old saw that "no one has proven any damage from marijuana" that hippies used to use as an excuse in the 60s is long past being anything but a dumb evasion of reality. Long-term (even intensive short-term) use does damage to memory, concentration and effective connection to the world. Constant users feel distant from people, anesthetized from the vicissitudes of life. Which, of course, is the very reason people use it. Naturally enough, anesthetized people don't make very good partners in intimate relationships. Not unless you enjoy living with a bed post. And marijuana use can make performance on the job way below par.

Now, I'd like to state something that I think is very important in regards to the thread about Judgment. For the record, "judgment" and "discrimination" have more than one connotation. I find it wearing constantly hearing OS's throw around the saw about "don't judge" because that's the ultimate sin. IMO, a demand not to be judged is all too frequently used as an excuse to not take responsibility for immature, and often self- and other-destructive behavior. This world view on not judging, if taken to its logical extreme (and many do take it there by their actions), can be used to justify (and do nothing to prevent) crimes such as child abuse, rape, property theft and vandalism and violence of all sorts. New Agers say, "Oh, we can't *judge* anyone or anything, no matter what they do." They say, "It doesnĂt matter *what* action anyone does. Because in the long run, no matter what [heinous crime] you do, you are *learning* something." And, of course, the assumption goes, your victim *chose* you to victimize him or her, and therefore they are *learning* something, too.

How do you think rape and incest survivors and people who have been beaten or robbed feel about this kind of reasoning? In this world view, animals can be tortured, people maimed and destroyed, the earth raped, and¨so what? Someone, somewhere is "learning" something from the experience. So who cares? Why say a word?

Thus, in the "don't judge" world view, anyone who stands up for responsibility, dignity, respect and integrity is "wrong," an idiot at best, a criminal at worst. Because there is no way to have ethics when it involves the "evil" of judging, judging between right and wrong actions, between actions that heal and build and actions that maim and destroy.

What a sad and tragic twisting of logic! The results have brought so much human suffering, I often weep to see it!

CONTINUED in Part 2


Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 03:39:26 EST
Subject: Kate's Discussion (Part 2)

Kate's Discussion on Drugs (Part 2)

The real truth of the matter is that In the positive, good judgment (aka "discrimination" in its positive connotation) is among the more vital life skills that mature human adults need to negotiate the adversities--and "choices"--that life is always throwing at us.

Here is an accurate definition of judgment in its positive connotation: (1) the ability to make a decision or form an opinion objectively or wisely, especially in matters affecting action; (2) good sense; (3) discernment; (4) the demonstration or exercise of such capacity; (5) the forming of an opinion, estimate, notion, or conclusion, as from circumstances or facts presented to the mind.

For you linguists: since 1905 in the US, the term "judgmental" has been part of colloquial English meaning, "tending to make moral judgments" or "putting others down for being different from me." It also means being patronizing, holier than thou, and downright hypocritical (i.e., "the pot calling the kettle black"). However, and I stress this again, this is a *secondary* meaning for the word that does *not* invalidate the whole process of judgment as unnecessary and a sin.

Of course, we also live in a culture with strong Judeo-Christian roots. As most of you may know, another origin of, "it's bad to judge other people," which the dictionary does not give comment on, but is present in our culture, is the Biblical injunction, "Judge not lest ye also be judged." In Christian tradition, there is a "judgment day," or day of reckoning, in which all the souls of all the people who have ever lived (you only get one go-round according to Christian belief, at least as it became canonized for political reasons fairly early on in its history) go before God (and, variously, according to your individual theology, the angels and saints as well). God then "judges" the souls and the "worthy" ones live eternally in paradise, and the unworthy ones burn in hell. (At least according to the borrowing into Christianity of the images of hell from Zoroastrianism. In actuality, the fire in question is more likely a metaphor for purification by the spiritual fire of "truth," but why get into an argument about Christian theology when probably most of us aren't per se Christians even though we respect Jesus himself very much?)

In addition, as insult on injury, the Old Soul, New Age version of "Don't judge" is often proclaimed with great righteousness, and usually most loudly by people whose actions currently being "judged" have little to recommend them to either rational, compassionate, or responsible human beings. "Don't judge me" statements usually comes out sounding something like this in their attitude and verbiage: "Don't be so damned judgmental, you twerp!" Such statements are very similar to those of immature parents who rudely teach their children politeness, to wit: "Damn you, Johnny, why don't you ever remember to say thank you!" In much the same manner, it seems that whenever any Newager is griping about a compatriot being "too judgmental," the whole discussion very quickly degenerates into a judgmental teaching about how important it is to not to be judgmental.

As I mentioned above, discrimination is synonymous in many ways with judgment, and it is another word that has, for some years now in the U.S., become used most of the time only in its relatively new, negative connotation of, "making a distinction in favor of or against a person on the basis of the group or class to which the person belongs, rather than according to merit; showing unfair partiality.

I believe it is also important to recall the crucial *positive* meanings of the social skill of discrimination: (1) the power of making fine distinctions; (2) good judgment (as defined above); (3) having excellent taste; (4) able to distinguish between things that are not alike; (5) able to differentiate; (6) able to accurately note or distinguish a difference; (7) possessing the ability to think critically or analytically.

Another "judgment" word that constantly gets a bad rap in this country is "criticism" (ironically so when, IMO, criticizing is our favorite national pastime). We've all heard that there is a possibility of "constructive criticism," its just that very few people can remember a time when any criticism they've received actually *felt* "constructive." Hence, we tend to think of it as always, inevitably negative. But just like judgment and discrimination, "critical thinking" is a higher form of reasoning that is very useful to mature human beings.

Sadly, many people in our culture, and most cultures throughout history, never gain real emotional maturity, because they are never taught, especially by example, the skills necessary to accomplish that end. Yes, many of us as Old Souls have been through hundreds of lifetimes of experience, but due to the smoke and mirrors of maya, we don't come into any given lifetime with instant, full recall of all our hundreds, even thousands of years of experience on the planet. We have to pretty much start over every time. We have to go from infant to baby to child to adolescent to adult each lifetime. In the process, we've been set up as human beings not to have instinct to guide us as animals do. On the contrary, we have to learn by example, so we need to be apprenticed with more mature individuals in order to develop emotional maturity.

One of the most brilliant thinkers on this subject of emotional maturity that I've ever read, who also happens to be a profound thinker in the field of drug addiction, is Stephen Glenn, an educational psychologist. He has developed a rubric for emotional maturity made up of seven perceptions and skills that he believes people must be consciously taught by more mature human beings. He says that humans are born not fully formed, that we need guidance to reach our full potential. He notes that using the word "rehabilitation" in reference to addicts and criminals is a misnomer. The word "habilitate" means "to make capable." So to "rehabilitate" actually means to bring someone back to a state of personal capability that they formerly had but somehow lost. Research and experience shows that drug abusers and criminals virtually never have had capability in the first place. Which is why, Glenn asserts, that they got into trouble to begin with.

I believe that what Glenn is saying makes a great deal of sense. I believe that few people have ever had the kind of ideal parenting that we are only now, for the first time in human history in this democratic era following the extreme excesses of the Nazi experience, beginning to contemplate as an ideal. Before the WWII era, blind obedience was deemed the ideal trait to encourage in children. No more. At least not in the West. Now there is a new ideal, and once people know about a new ideal, it creates a hunger for it. Many, many people, starting with the Baby Boomer generation (which includes me and a lot of you) are currently out looking for this new parenting they never had. This means that many of us, especially we OS's, have spent much of our life constantly looking for healing answers. We've sought useful guidance in books, in gurus, in universities, in friends. And in spiritual Net lists like this one.

What Glenn is saying is just one more opinion that may or may not assist you in this search. If you care to read on, I've listed his Significant Seven traits of human maturity for your consideration:

No. 1: Perceptions of Personal Capability

A perception is the conclusion we reach as the result of an experience after we have had time to reflect on that experience. A skill is something we know how to do. Perceptions result from the thought process alone, but it takes practice (and time) to acquire a skill. Perception is key to attitudes, motivation and behavior. It is cumulative, and it is unique to each individual. It is a product of four elements: experience, identification, analysis and generalization.

(1) Experience. In order to perceive oneself as a person who is capable (has the ability to function in a useful manner for self or others), the person needs first to become consciously aware of experiences in his/her life, both negative and positive. (2) Identification. Next she needs to be able to identify the significant outcome of a particular event. "What did I learn from that experience?" (3) Analysis. Next, the person needs to become increasingly adept at analyzing why certain aspects of the experience were important: "Why did that happen to me? Why was this event significant to me?" (4) Generalization. Finally, the person needs to take at least one single principle (idea or theme) from a given experience (especially if it was painful, but even if it was happy) and decide how he can apply what he has learned to similar experiences in the future. This is called "generalizing from experience."

When a person learns how to learn from experience in this way, over time, the person's "cumulative perception" of herself is that she is capable. She feels competent because she knows she can "live and learn."

No. 2: Perceptions of Personal Significance

Perhaps most core to human existence are the dual needs to find meaning in life and to perceive and experience personal significance.

The need to be needed is often more powerful than the need to survive. Alfred Adler found that when human beings feel no sense of belonging or importance, they behave in ways that provide them with a false sense of significance such as demanding undue attention, using power unproductively, or going after revenge for perceived wrongs. And when all that fails, they may simply give up.

When people feel they are not personally significant, that they are not needed, that they make no useful contribution to anyone or anything, they tend to act along a continuum, ranging from outright rebellion to passive resignation. These patterns can result in self-destructive behaviors, addictions among them, also unplanned pregnancies (and acquiring of venereal diseases of various sorts), theft, vandalism, chronic fatigue, eating disorders, anxiety disorders, depression, suicide or violence to others.

It's been found that one of the major "techniques" which combats this problem is to have a sensitive, empathetic person spend meaningful one-on-one time with the troubled person at least once a day. This is particularly effective with children and teenagers, but can also work with adults, though not as quickly (because our problems as adults are much more entrenched). The therapeutic partner/friend/healthcare provider engages in dialogue (with good listening skills being used) with the troubled person and invites the person to assist in meaningful/significant tasks and activities (examples might include helping at a crisis center, a food bank, a hospital, delivering food to shut-ins, visiting AIDS patients, or the like, or something as simple as being a classroom helper).

Research shows that people who view themselves as important, unique and necessary to their work or families are significantly less vulnerable to cancer, strokes, heart attacks, hypertension and other diseases. And less prone to addictions (which are often self-medications for emotional pain or a form of "acting out," rebellion against the parents or society which rejected or humiliated them).

Human beings are spiritual (not necessarily "religious") as well as practical creatures. Spirituality can be defined as an active identification with things greater than oneself that give life meaning and purpose. By this definition, things like friendship, trust, loyalty and respect are spiritual values. Three conditions are necessary for spiritual affirmation, which helps people have a sense of personal significance:

(1) People need to be listened to, not just heard, but understood.
(2) People need to be taken seriously, not just understood, but accepted, loved and respected.
(3) People need to feel genuinely needed for their own personal worth, contribution and significance.

Affirmation. People need to be affirmed, that is, validated, supported and uplifted by others. A strong affirming tool is dialogue.

Dialogue. This is a meaningful exchange of perceptions in a non-threatening climate of support and genuine interest. It is the foundation of critical thinking, moral and ethical development, judgmental maturity, bonding, closeness and trust. It involves genuine interest.

Genuine Interest. This is defined as interest in another devoid of the need to manipulate the direction or conclusions of the discussion.

No 3: Perceptions of Personal Power or Influence Over Life

A third hallmark of an emotionally healthy, mature individual is a perception that her thoughts, choices and actions actually affect the events and circumstances of her life. One characteristic of people who tend to get into trouble (including the self-destructive behavior of addiction, as well as the other-destructive behavior of violence) is their perception that they have little or no power to affect what happens to them. They put their faith in fate or luck, and are frequently impotent in the face of choices. In clinical terms, such people are described as having an "external locus of control." They are passive victims of outside events.

People with an external locus of control usually take one of three paths through life:

(1) They continually feel depressed at their failure in finding success and happiness outside themselves;
(2) They run on a treadmill all their lives while harboring the hope that someday they will find fulfillment out there; or
(3) They seek a false sense of power by living a life of rebellion (committing illegal acts, including illegal substance abuse, or abuse of legal drugs, in the process abusing their families, friends and coworkers by not keeping commitments, or outright verbal or physical violence).

In contrast, people with a strong sense of having power over events have an "internal locus of control." Their behavior is the result of their internal decisions to take appropriate action. (They have good "judgment.") These people may enjoy material possessions or the approval of others, but they don't depend on them for their happiness. Rather, their happiness emanates from within themselves. It is an expression of their gratitude for the miracles of life, peace of mind, compassion, and love for others. They feel successful, believe their success comes from inside themselves, and bring that feeling to everything they do.

(Note: street drugs are well known to give people a sense of potency, often omnipotence, which is very tantalizing to someone who feels they cannot in "normal consciousness" affect what happens to them in a potent way.)

No. 4: Intrapersonal (within one's own self) Skills

(1) Accurate (objective) Self-Assessment. This is the ability to recognize, interpret and acknowledge personal feelings such as frustration, anger, sadness, fear, excitement, affection, etc.

(2) Self-Control. This is the ability to "choose" not to participate in acts that are abusive to the self or others. It is the ability to know that feelings are only feelings, actions result from the choices the mind makes as to how to respond to feelings. It is the ability to evaluate and learn from past behavior, and the ability to see a correlation between feelings and actions, and between actions and outcomes.

(3) Self-Discipline. This is the ability to consider an outcome in the abstract and select a behavior that will achieve it. It is the product of self-assessment and self-control in response to a given situation, and the ability to set aside behaviors that bring immediate gratification in order to achieve a chosen goal. IOW, it is the ability to "defer gratification" in order to work for goals more long term than immediate relief of pain or instant pleasure at any cost to self or others.

No. 5: Interpersonal (relationship) Skills

(1) Listening. This is understanding what others are saying form their point of view. An important set of skills for achieving this are paraphrasing and using "I" statements, learning to look both at the content, the "what" of a speaker's message, and the "why" of the message, the speaker's motivation.

(2) Communicating. This is exchanging ideas with others.

(3) Cooperating. This is working with others toward a common goal.

No. 6: Systemic Skills

1) Cause and Effect. If one doesn't understand how cause and effect work, one cannot accept the inevitable conditions of, the limits of, reality. IOW, in order to set a goal, a person must be able to predict what outcomes are possible, what relationships are involved in the goal, and what steps must be taken with respect to those relationships for the goal to be achieved.

(2) Responsibility. A responsible person is consciously aware of the events of his life, is able to identify what was significant from those experiences, is adept at analyzing why certain aspects of events in his life are significant and can apply what he has learned to subsequent experiences. IOW, he sees the interrelationships between people and events in his life and can effectively work with those relationships. He is able to build a body of wisdom over time that makes his actions increasingly "positive," effective and productive.

(3) Adaptability. Each human being is not one self, but multiple selves. Each facet of each person is valid (productive) in some contexts and invalid (non-productive) in others. The sooner we learn to accept and integrate our multiple identities, the closer we come to maturity. Immature people erroneously believe that they have a single-faceted personality that applies to all situations. Thus, they ignore valuable social feedback, fail to anticipate the consequences of their behavior, and never learn how to adapt effectively to unexpected situations. Adaptability allows the mature human being to feel at home (safe) under most circumstances.

No. 7: Judgmental Skills

Judgment requires the application of abstract ideas to real life. It is the ability to assess a situation with respect to its practical and ethical appropriateness and to make decisions about behavior on the basis of that assessment. Judgment is a learned skill, and there is only one way to learn it: practice. All people must apprentice with more mature individuals in order to develop this capability.

END
--
Kate McMurry


Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 05:12:58 EST
Subject: Re: Animal exploitation

In a message dated 98-01-17 21:21:38 EST, Dick writes:

<< It's also apparent that the animal kingdom is taking steps to strike
back at our inappropriate use of their resources. To wit: "mad cow"
disease, the recent "bird flu", and maybe others. >>

I was hoping someone would make a point about those outbreaks. They are very revealing in demonstrating how nature sometimes fights back when a resource is being wrongly exploitated.

Dave


Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:03:01 EST
Subject: Q. re: animals..

If I understand what has been said correctly, we only come here in human form. But, what about animals... not only whales, dolphins. Is there some validity to their souls? What about trees, plants? I guess I am asking if they are on a journey, a different journey, or non at all? And how does that relate to what we are going through?
Hope my question makes sense.

PJ


Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:11:14 EST
Subject: with or w/o soul

| A body can actually exist for a time with no soul, like a car idling.
| However, after a while, it will die if no soul takes it.

<< I've heard this before. Can you give an approximate time frame? Are we
talking hours, days, weeks, months? >>

From time to time I am near someone who I feel is a "car idling". ie. no energy, and I would swear that there is no soul there. Could it be that the soul has just left for a while? Does this apply to what you are saying?

PJ


Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:18:47 EST
Subject: Re: devas; drugs

In a message dated 1/17/98 3:36:58 PM, you wrote:

<< As far as I know there are no animal creatures of any
sort on this planet who are attracted to breathe smoke. It is poisonous. >>

Thanks for making this comment. I had been thinking of this lately... of how so many of us do things habitually that are bad for our body and how animals in the wild do not. How do we become so disconnected of what the body needs?

PJ


Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:04:14 -0600
Subject: Rigidity and Validity - LONG POST

Well, I must finally come out and say that which I have been loath to say because I'm a sensitve soul and I don't like being "ripped."

First of all I want you to know that as far as "I" am concerned you are all fine and are right where you are supposed to be. Okay?

But I am weary of being told that the Core Michael Teachings are incorrect and that I need to validate what the teachings are. (Let me finish, please.)

Long before the Michaels came on the scene, I was searching for Spiritual Growth. When I was 16 (without parental assistance) I went to a number of Christian Churches for a period of time and finally chose to be baptised and confirmed in the United Lutheran Church.

When I was 18 I became disillusioned with the concept that anyone not baptised (no matter how beautiful a soul they were) would not go to "heaven". And I loathed the condescending pat on the head and the phrase "just have faith", when I questioned something.

So I went on the search and came to Ernest Holmes and Science of Mind, with a sprinkling of Eastern beliefs thrown in. And I was always guided by a "voice within" (not in my head) that told me when I was going in MY right direction.

Many years later I read "MFM". I did not validate Michael, Michael validated me! These were my core beliefs and by the time I had read the first two chapters I knew I was on MY right path. That has not stopped my search for growth. I would not have sought you out if that were the case.

However, I do not think that newer Michael Channelers are "better or worse" than the Core Group. Although, if you read Lori's skeptic report, posted on her website you might be a bit concerned about some of them. I certainly am.

I do not channel anything or anyone. I am guided by what I now know is "Essence". When I first found Lori's Webpage I went to the Channel List and had my Essence select one for me so that I can get some of the basic information I need now.

Why did I send this long post? Because I'm not rigid, I'm not a sheep and I do not need to be "told" to validate. I've been doing that all of this lifetime and frankly I will be so happy when this lifetime is finished. But "I'm okay - you're okay" and I would ask everyone "When Is A Rose Not Perfect"?

Let's love each other for who we really are and not quibble and please don't condescend to me. I know I've been around a long time and chronologically I'm a BBBB (born before Baby Boomers).

Love and weak Laughter :-))

Jeanne Holley


Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:24:29 -0800
Subject: Re: Q. re: animals..

PJ,

I think everything here is on a journey of sentience and evolution. There is validity in all existence, which is why we learn to respect the life force in everything. We are all of, in, and part of a whole system, interrelating. Each part of the whole, is itself whole and interrelating at the same time.

Best Brin

 


Next Page | 1998/4   
.....................................................................................................................................

Michael Teachings Home | Welcome | Michael FAQ | Soul Age | Roles | Overleaves | Advanced Topics | The Nine Needs | Michael Channeling | Related Articles | Channels & Resources | Michael Tools | Michael Books | Michael Chat | Michael Student Database | Links